maybe if this action took place BEFORE the war...

Tons of these rallies took place before the war. The reason they didn't succeed then was that they offered nothing constructive. Lots of anti-americanism mixed with marxist solidarity with Cuba and North Korea, all followed by cries of "No Blood for Oil." (http://www.lexlibertas.com/lexlibertas/archives/2003/08/no_blood_for_coal.php)

There was a clear case for war, and these groups would have done a much greater service to the country had they offered rational alternatives. Now they claim to be upset by the deaths of 3,000 soldiers, but these are the same groups that wished for a thousand Mogadishus.

Owen,

It must be comfortable to live in your own special universe where all answers are "clear" and where a difference in point-of-view must of necessity be motivated by treason. In fact, most of the rest of us think that the bloodbath and suffering that we have seen in Iraq these last three years was not - unlike Afghanistan - have been justified by the dubious reasons given.

A small number may demonstrate, but the vast majority of American's now believe that the war has been either unnecessary or grossly mismanaged.

I will agree with Garibaldi that the justification for war in Iraq was dubious, at best. However I believe the justification for war in Afghanistan was absolutely clear.

But in defense of owen, he did not accuse those opposed to the war of "treason". He also makes an important point about many of the major groups that have led the anti-war protests. Many of the highest profile protests have been led by organizations that are clearly marxist of socialist, such as A.N.S.W.E.R. I've got no problem with individuals protesting the war as that is their constitutional right and an important part of our democratic system of government. It is vital that all views be heard and debated in the public forum. But I also believe it hurts the credibility of protesters when they openly associate with radical left-wing groups that push an anti-American, anti-capitalism agenda.

By the same token, if someone wanted to march in support of immigration reform they should avoid marching side-by-side with neo Nazis or Klan members as that would immediately destroy any credibility they might be seeking. Groups like A.N.S.W.E.R. are on the opposite end of the political spectrum from the KKK, but just as radical and dangerous.

Many of these groups are also anti-Semitic as well.

For the record I am not a member of these groups, I just post their events so we all can see what is going on politically across the county. But before we go too fart which of the groups is the anti-semitic group/s?

That is shocking. What group in particular? I
associate with many people from these various
organizations, but am mostly active with the
Green
Party which is most certainly NOT anti-semitic!.
Nor,
are any of the people I know that are involved
with
the various event sponsors. I cannot fathom where
anyone would get a message of anti-semitism from
the
doctrines of non-violence, peace, human rights,
and
environmental sanity that these groups advocate
for.

Some of the comments being made about groups organzing Friday's vigil are outrageous and downright false. Anti-Semitic? No way. Anti-American? Hardly. The tenants of these groups are anti-imperialism, anti-fascism, anti-racism, and anti-warmongering.

Radical? Some people are. That does not mean however that an entire organization is so. What is DANGEROUS is to generalize so narrow mindedly. As to radicalism - well, the environmental and human genocides being waged by a small group of political and corpoate "leaders" in this country is what is radical.

What our organizations DO advocate for is:
non-violence, human rights, and environmental sanity. Gee, sounds VERY DANGEROUS, ANTI-AMERICAN, AND ANTI-SEMITIC. Come on!

I cant speak for the mindset of every activist in these groups - they are national and international and are comprised of millions of people. However, on a local level, from what I've actually STUDIED and SEEN, and HEARD these groups do and say - I have NEVER, EVER heard a single person call for violence of any kind. In fact, that is the very antithesis of what we are about. So, the comment
"these are the same groups that wished for a thousand Mogadishus" is ludicrous - and disgusting.

As to the war...when the very neocons that orchestrated the whole thing admit they lied, or at least that they were "wrong", how can any sane and free thinking person STILL beleive that there was any justification? When is there ever ANY justification for ANY country to invade and occupy another country? Espcially based on lies?

Yes, Sadam was a ruthless dictator. The world's got plenty of them. But, guaranteed, if Iraq's natural resource was oranges we would not have attacked. So, it IS about the OIL. This country's long history of military and corporate attack on other nations and cultures has always been about sucking up and/or controlling natural resources.
If that sounds like "anti-capitalism", than so be it.

As to protesting 4 years too late? Unbeleivable.
Locally, we have protested, and held vigil before and constantly since the horrendous "shock N' awe" of March 2003.

Nationally, millions and millions of Americans have taken to the streets time and time again in protest. It just isnt shown in the "mainstream"
(corporate controlled right wing) media.

If you dont think so, just google. Plus, I've got lots of film of our local protests if you doubt.

Internationally...the amount of protests would boggle the mind. (Especially some of yours)
On Feb 15 2003 it is estimated that up towards 60 million people protested the U.S. invasion in every country on every continent on this planet.

So, we are most certainly not a "fringe" part of U.S. or global society.

Wake up, smarten up, and excercise your right and your DUTY to question the motives of the so called leaders who act in your name.

I will not let a handful of greedy, power-hungry, war-mongering, and just plain evil men in control of MY WHITEHOUSE represent me to the world.

So, I will stand on the street corner and protest this unjust, immoral, and illegal war and occupation.

A great quote from activist and author Arundati Roy: "Flags are bits of cloth used to shrinkrap the brain and then to shroud the dead".

ps.....also google "depleted uranium".

To be clear, I wasn't accusing anybody on this forum of belonging to extremist groups. I do think, however, that well-meaning people who happen to oppose the war sometimes become inadvertently involved with extremist groups who have a larger agenda than just the anti-war movement. For that reason I think it is important that anybody involved in a cause take the time to scrutinize the groups in which they become involved.

Katie is correct that some of the more radical left-wing groups are also anti-Semitic, among other things. ANSWER is a good example of such a group. The organization not only opposes the Iraq war but also opposed the invasion and war in Afghanistan, something that the vast majority of Americans still support. The steering committee of the organization includes socialists, Marxists, and left-wing Muslim and Arabic groups. Many of the leaders are members of the Workers World Party and the Party for Socialism and Liberation, a Marxist-Leninist organization.

ANSWER is also openly pro-Palestinian and many of its leaders have come out against the existence of the state of Israel and also openly expressed support for organizations like Hezbollah. Their protests have often included displays comparing Israeli leaders to Nazis and equating the Jewish Star of David to the Nazi swastika. This organization has accused Israel of being a "racist state" and expressed sympathy for the insurgents fighting American forces in the Middle East. They have also accused Israel of being a capitalist outpost for western powers and expressed support for various militant groups whose aim is to counter the spread of capitalism around the world.

The moral of the story is to do your research and be aware with whom you associate.

Such efforts would be better placed to call to an end to the violence in Iraq. The sooner the violence stops, the sooner the troops can come home. After that the narrow minded tribists of Iraq can start their quarrel again.

The Anti-Defamation League has also come out in opposition to ANSWER: http://www.adl.org/Israel/answer.asp

Here are some photos depicting anti-Semitic expression in ANSWER sponsored anti-war rallies: http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/as_rallies.asp

Do I believe that anti-war protesters are anti-Semitic in general? No. I also don't think that the majority of protesters in these demonstrations agree with many of the beliefs of organizations such as ANSWER, though some obviously do agree.

However, I also think that associating with such a group undermines the credibility of protesters. To claim that the cause is pure therefore the ends justifies the means is nothing more than rationalizing away any kind of standards of behavior or accountability. I may believe in a cause, but I would never dream of marching shoulder-to-shoulder with a Nazi or Klan member, regardless if their interests could assist in advancing something worthwhile. There are Klan organizations that are trying to build credibility by participating in adopt-a-highway programs, but even well-meaning community programs cannot disguise that the organization is still fundamentally a racist group.

The same applies to ANSWER. Those that associate with them ultimately assist them in their agenda, which extends well beyond their anti-war activities. You may not be anti-Semitic or carry and anti-Semitic sign, but if you associate with an anti-Semitic group you are indirectly advancing their cause through your participation.

I like how if you go to a peace vigil that has some radical groups also calling for peace you arre aligned against America.

Almost all of America beyond Owen and W. now believe the war was a mistake. Many of our leaders in both parties were wrong.

They said it was WMD's. They were wrong. I agree that if Iraq had oranges instead of oil we wouldn't of been there. the average kid on the street knows it is oil.

To Karl Marx,

It is one thing to be opposed to the Iraq war or to express sympathy for Palestinians, which can be a just cause. But associating with groups that openly support Hezbollah cannot be rationalized away, regardless of whether your beliefs and goals happen to intersect.

Let's put it another way...

Suppose you were in support of reducing dependence on foreign oil, which is a noble cause. There are many peaceful, legal ways to advance your agenda. However, there are also militant groups who have resorted to vandalism and arson for the same cause. A good example of this is the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), which itself has been responsible for $200 million in damage within the U.S. through eco-terroism activities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front

Even though a person may share similar beliefs in the goals of ELF, there is a distinct difference in how those goals can be accomplished. I agree with those who believe we need to take action to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, but I will never support someone who openly or indirectly supports groups like ELF.

In the same way, you can support the Palestinian movement but still oppose the methods employed by groups like Hezbollah. But once you march arm-in-arm with a group like ELF or Hezbollah you are in essence assisting them in their overall agenda. If you want to protest the war then by all means protest and let your voice be heard. But there is no excuse for associating with known racist groups that are sympathetic to terrorism, regardless of the righteousness of your cause.

If I go to a vigil for soldiers that has some groups supporting it that are extreme does that make me an extremist, or a radical?

I ask because it seems Owen and others can no longer support the war and its rationale so instead they attack the message bringer.

It is great to find this means of communication. It is understandable that most of those who are mis-informed about the vastness of the peace movenemt watch, listen to or read only the mass media owned by the military industrial complex or a Korean right wing religious zelot (The Washington Times). The take over began more than thirty years ago with a careful program to provide the government/high income power elite, with a propoganda tool par excellance. The real people were too trusting and actually for the past several years, shut out of the decision making processes. We who care are torn between so many worthy causes that we are not always able to get out in the streets at each opportunity. We do however call and write and ecommunicate and support each other as often and as well as we can. To remark about the alleged anti-semitic overtones of certain group it would take someone who has experienced the day to day life under the auspices of the Israeli government to really know why there is opposition to the current situation. If having sympathy for people who are being treated in a very cruel way is being anti-semitic, then i'll have to take on that label. The so called justified attack on Afghanistan has resulted in a return to extremely horrible treatment of women and others who want to study, and if there had not been a need for an oil pipe line across that country and a need to resume the opium business, there would have been no need to invade. By the way, no matter what the technical explanations for the falling of the WTC, the very fact that the planes were allowed to do it is clear proof to me that the whole thing was if not planned by the incompetent Bush Crime Family then completely permitted by them and their cohorts. Too bad for the resto of us who have no money, no power and only the voice we keep raising and the bodies we keep putting out there. We need to recruit more and more people in every venue. The South Pasadena and San Gabriel Valley Neighbors for Peace and Justice and the Kucinich people made an impact on the Rose Parade crowd and even got the IMPEACH sign behind Darth Vader on national TV. Every group needs to join with others for this type of action.. at least we will know we have always been righteously indignant.
Thanks for reading this long expression of my feelings and observations.. of course, listen to kpfk and air america and watch jon stewart and stephen colbert and i think one of the other tv people who is growing a beard is getting on board...
shalom,\
md

Malqha, I want to be sure I understand you clearly. Based on your response it sounds like you believe that the war in Afghanistan was not justified and that the real purpose of this war was to build and oil pipeline, resume the opium trade and to harm women. Does that also mean that you believe that the Taliban should have remained in power and that women would have been better off under that regime?

You also seem to be suggesting that the WTC attacks were either deliberately planned and executed by the Bush administration, or at the very least knowingly allowed to move forward. Do you believe that Israel was also somehow involved in this plot?

Interesting perspective. Is there anyone else here who agrees with Malqha on these issues?

I want all the anti-zionist war protesters to say if they believe in the right of return for Palestinians. Would this right of return destroy the Jewish character of Israel through demographics?

I don't get these war protester groups point. Do they want us to leave Iraq ASAP? Leaving today could cause the slaughter of millions of people and the creation of a theocracy which stands against almost every progressive belief. To top that all off they will be very unlikely to support recycling programs or to teach about the value of diversity.

If we leave Saudi Arabia said they will invade to protect the Sunni minority. Add to that Iran supporting reactionary clerics and it is a recipe for human rights abuses.

Can we all just admit that Bush is a miserable failure and look for solutions that might improve the average Iraqis life in the long term?

I say we impeach Cheney and Bush and start fresh.

The sad story about Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia is that many millions of people died after U.S. forces abandoned them following the failed war in Vietnam.

It is likely that abandoning Iraq will lead to a bloody civil war that could also result in the deaths of millions. The majority of Americans now believe that going into Iraq was a mistake, however the real question we face is not past decisions, but instead what do we do from here forward. An immediate and total withdrawal from Iraq, as many want, might actually make the situation for the Iraqi people much worse. Now that the U.S. government has destabilized the situation in Iraq it can be argued that they have a responsibility to do what is necessary to keep order until a new Iraqi government can take power. Pulling out of Iraq now would be like having the police pull out of New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina. The place would tear itself apart.

For those that plan to participate in the anti-war demonstration, what is your goal? Do you want immediate withdrawal or a phased withdrawal? If phased, then under what conditions and time-line?

Now that I think about it I have another question specifically for Malqha. Do you deny the holocaust or do you believe that the events of the holocaust are a historical fact? Just curious.

In terms of realpolitiks the death of millions doesnt factor much into US policy. At the end of the VietNam war the US & China armed and financed Pol Pot's horrendous activities as a means of blocking VietNamese expansion. Before the war it was the US who unilaterally decided to block unification elections throughout the North & South, being held under UN auspices. That US denial of a national referendum in VietNam, agreed to by all parties, was what brought the US into the quagmire.

In late 1960s Iraq, the US played a key role in the assasination of Kassem and the overthrow of his government and the installation of Hussein in the mid 1970s. The US was Saddam's principle military, politicaml and economic ally up until the Kuwait invasion and assisted his war against Iran, even to the extent of supplying Hussein with intelligence and naval support in the Gulf. The death of millions wasn't a major US concern then and despite the noble and idealistic rhetoric...it isn't now.

If anyone wants to play the connections game to attack the antiwar movement go ahead and click on my link.

Do remember the people AGAINST the war are the majority. I can name three senators in favor of the surge. Eleven percent of America supports them on that idea. That makes them a fringe group.

Re: Police in New Orleans being needed as the troops in Iraq
According to Gary Smith, a Katrina survivor, the police did not do an effective job of protecting the residents who stayed. The people would possibly have been better off with out them. The police seemed to be more concerned with protecting property than with taking care of the needs of the people. That reminds me of the guarding of the Iraqi Oil Ministry while all the other stuff was bing destroyed.... during the early phases of Operaion Iraqi Liberation....'nuff said.....
md

Question for those who believe that the current situations in iraq and afghanistan are good things: Why aren't you there?

A suggestion for getting more troops... use the ones in the phillipines, south korea and germany and other bases around the world... i think the people, especially the women of some of those countries like the philipines and south korea would be glad to see the u.s. out of their lands.... having no troops in viet nam has let the people develop a good economy and repair a lot of the damage etc.... if given a chance and some of the gazillions of dollars currently used for destruction and death, the people of all the invaded and occupied countries including iraq and afghanistan would do the same...
md

I'm not sure I share your optimism in the ability of other nations to peacefully develop their society and economy on their own. It would be a nice thing if the world actually worked that way, but history has shown otherwise.

You make it sound as if the presence of U.S. troops is the root of the problem. I disagree. For instance, it is our troops in South Korea that have kept the peace for decades and allowed the South Korean government to re-build from the ashes of war into the third largest economy in Asia. Without the security of American forces the North and South would likely still be butchering one another with the survivors living in fear and squalor.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, it has been the refusal of industrialized nations to intervene and keep the peace in Rwanda that has allowed a genocide to continue that has killed upwards of 1 million people. The problem in Rwanda isn't the presence of foreign armed forces, it is the absense of them.

Often it is the U.S. military that is the only think keeping nations from tearing themselves apart. I wish it were not so, but that is the world in which we live. Withdrawing U.S. forces around the world would likely cause far more problems than it would solve. Nobody likes to send their sons and daughters to a foreign land, but sometimes there is a greater good to be served.

Bubba,
Since you support the war why don't you enlist and go over there?

I did my time in the military in service of my country. I also have several close family members who are active military and have served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. As a matter of fact, my son just returned this Christmas from his second tour of duty in Iraq.

Tell me Doc, since you are so quick to judge others please tell us all why you haven't bothered to enlist.

I don't support the war in Iraq, you do, so why not re-enlist?

So Doc, do you think that sitting around and blogging counts as service to your country?

Based on your reasoning a person isn't entitled to an opinion on healthcare unless they presently work in a hospital. They also can't have an opinion on public safety unless actively employed as a firefighter or a cop. No opinion is allowed on education unless a person is working as a teacher in a classroom. And even retired military with a child serving in combat can't have an opinion on the subject unless they personally re-enlist.

Interesting perspective. So do you these rules apply to yourself or just to everyone else? Please specify your line of employment so we know which subjects in which you are not qualified to have an opinion.

And given that you not personally serving in Iraq you are, by your own reasoning, not entitled to an opinion on this subject either.

To answer the question of the purpose of the invasion of Afghanistan and iraq, yes, i do believe that oil and drugs were the main motivation since those entities which profit from the trade of these commodities have been stirring up problems in these areas since the last couple of centuries... the weapons manufacturers also profit and do what they can to stop peace... by the way, does ruanda have any valuable resources? probably not so ther is no rush to help the people. Or, maybe they wanted to share in the profits of their resources which would make them subject to invasion by the big corporations which profit from exploitation or by neglect.... the bigger picture tells it all... has any one read the book by Smedly Butler, WAR IS A RACQIET? Sad but true... time to stop the madness and use the money for life, liberty and the persuit of happiness in this and other contries....

You never answered my question malqha. Do you deny the holocaust or do you believe that the events of the holocaust are a historical fact?

Bubba,
Actually I was in the Salavation Army for many years, does that count? Now please tell us your real name and occupation. Given that you claim to have been in the military I can see no reason why you would hide behind a false name unless you are ashamed of something. Were you at Mai Lai?

Sorry Doc, the Salvation Army does not count, however you do get brownie points for actually doing some sort of meaningful work. I'm sorry to say, but according to your own rules you are not allowed to express an opinion for or against the war unless you are actively engaged in it. Too bad.

The first time I saw BK's comment about the holocaust I thought it was dumb. Now that Malqha Davida has ignored it I am left wondering.

Especially since she thinks North and South Korea would of worked everything out if the American troops who she sees as rapists would leave.

I wonder what she thinks should happen in Darfur? An all womyn force?

I love the blame America crowd on this blog. I mean nevermind that the fall of the Soviet Union and the fire sale of weapons to the highest bidder has created massive problems throughout the world.

Wasn't it Russia that is offering to build nuclear producing plants in Iran? Wonder why?

Didn't Russia defy UN resolutuions prior to the Iraq invasion and landed their foreign minister to meet Saddam? Wonder why?

The Cold War really has never ended just changed to a different phase that the left still struggles to grasp.

We beat the Soviet Union destroying an ideology, but are still dealing with ex-Soviet satelites and proxies throughout the world.

Did you notice that nations such as Poland and Latvia that were originally held into the Warsaw Pact at the gunpoint of an AK-47 tended to side with us on Iraq? I wonder why?

Vietnam was a Soviet Satelite nation during the Vietnam war. That's why the US was there and that's why China moved in after we left. Blaming the US for Pol Pot's Cambodia is a total missreading of World history. Let me ask, did the Khmer rouge have Ak-47's or M-16's?

When Cambodia and Vietnam went to war it was a proxy war between the Chinese backed Khmer Rouge and a Soviet backed Vietnam. How is the blame on the US?

I suppose the Cuban missile crisis was America's fault too...

What about Pearl Harbor? I mean the US did cut imperial Japan off from Rubber and oil. Did we have it coming?

I think it's just flat wrong that someone said 9/11 was our fault too or as some wackos on this blog have claimed, perpetrated by the Bush adminstration even though it's pretty clear that our intelligence system can't even find Osama Bin Laden to this day.

It's a shame that to this day people still can't put responsibility for the 9/11 tragedy on where it belongs. They go along with the Iranian line that it must have been Israel or a US planned event.

Do you notice that all these nations or sub-nations seem to have AK-47's and Russian made weaponry from Somalia to Iran. Wonder why?

I think it's pretty intellectually pathetic and morally bankrupt that someone can't even admit the Holocaust occurred on a blog. I think that shows the level of credibility and seriousness these people should be given.

The far left never got over the US defeat of their idol worshiped Soviet Union and their responses have continued along a blame America mindframe because they see America's freedom as a threat to their pro-state socialist agenda.

In a Leninist way they have managed to make the Iraq war all about money, which is in line with Soviet thinking before the end of the Cold War.

As you see, the more things change, the more things stay the same.

What does "persuit" mean?

Lemay, I wouldn't get so worked up about marxist/leninists coming out of the woodwork at this point.

1989, the wall fell and their ideology broke down, was a very tough year. Now they try to slip their broken blame America logic back into the game and it's kind of amusing...

Let me get this straight....If you think Bush is a disaster and Iraq is a growing sink hole of blood and treasure then you must be a soviet dupe?

Hey guys, 1986 called and it wants it ideology back.

Trash Heap:

I agree and I don't know what "persuit" means either.

People just want to blame America for everything. They call us an empire, but to my knowledge we seem to be the only empire where people are trying to get in, instead of running to get away.

They don't understand that when the Soviet Union was defeated by Republicans, it created a power vacuum in a lot of these countries that threatened other nations and regions.

Clinton in his infinite stupidity decided he wanted to use US funds to keep Russia alive after their self-inflicted gunshot of democratic socialism. Now, we get to deal with a resusitated Russian bear and their apologists in US academic institutions and on this blog from the green and democratic party.

Many of these left wing idiots would have you believe that the US is to blame and use arguments consistent with Lenin's 1917 arguments, but it's all pretty misguided.

Lemay knows less about history than Chet Arthur!

many people wanted IN the Roman Empire. It was the center of great wealth, an escape from the doldrums of the countryside, and had the most advanced sciences.

This idea that empires are undesirable is being put forth by people like Lamay. America IS an empire, but I don't see what is wrong with just power and a just empire.

I find it interesting that Malqha still won't answer my question. But perhaps more troubling is that none of the regulars around here seem to be concerned about this. Why haven't Garibaldi, Karl Marx, GS, or Doc Holliday spoken out against someone who won't acknowledge the holocaust? All have posted in this thread and are quick to attack anyone who supports the war, yet these same people are oddly silent when one of their own won't acknowledge the systematic extermination of 6 million Jews. Since Malqua has similar political leanings and is against the war does she get a free pass? Or does that perhaps mean that some of you actually agree with her apparent denial of the holocaust?

This goes to my point about being careful with whom you associate, especially with groups or individuals who have a hidden agenda. Associating with these types of individuals not only hurts your credibility but it betrays the integrity of your cause.

Good points Bubba, but maybe she jsut hasn't been reading lately. I am not defending her, but not all readers are as loyal as you are.

I have to laugh about "Empire's" comments. Standard operating procedure in the Roman Empire was to publicly crucify the opposition of a country and put the residents into slavery.

Yeah, everyone was just running to get conquered....

Remember, when Christians were publicly fed to lions because they would bow before no one else but their Savior?

Empire's been reading too many California multi-cultural history textbooks. His favorite chapter is-- "Nero, the gentle emperor" Give me a break.

What next Empire-- "Crucifixtion, the gentle way to die"

Look at the Soviet empire. I don't seem to remember afghans or east germans running toward the Soviet Union. Same goes for the Nazi German empire.

Under Empire's logic dunkirk was just a vacation getaway from the Nazi's.

I agree with Bubba. This is the Blame America holocaust denial blog. They believe that violence in the world suddenly started in 1776.

I love watching them use old school communist hate America arguments under the banner of their green or democrat parties. It's not just be careful who you side with, it also is be careful with what rhetoric you use.

They still can't answer the main source of my argument. If the US is the reason for violence in the world why do Hezbollah and Hamas, the Iraqi insurgency, the Taliban, and North Korea all carry Ak-47's and not American-made weaponry?

Who were the biggest backers of the AK-47 in the world? I seem to remember it is Communist china and then-communist Russia.

In the first Iraq war, was our air force attacking M1 Abrams or Russian made T-34 tanks?

I seem to remember it was the latter.

When Scud missiles were slamming into Israeli neighborhoods, who made the Scud? The Soviets called the Scud the R-11 just so you know...

How can it be America's fault as the left wing detractors on this blog have said, if all these countries that seek to undermine world peace aren't even using our weaponry?

Bubba Kidd:

Sorry for the ignoring this latest confused banter of yours, but I do have a life beyond this blog.

For the record: If you comprehend my comments above, you would learn that they were not in support of Saddam Hussein, but about the right of American Citizens with a difference of opinion on the sense of this mismanaged war to demonstrate that freely as our constitution guarantees - without being classified as traitors. Our government was not truthful with its own people regarding the reasons for this war and ALL the people of this country and Iraq are paying for it as a consequence.

Warning: Be very careful making the comparison of Saddam's wars against his own people with the holocaust. The scope and rationale of the former pales in comparison with that of the latter.

Finally, one note: Donald Rumsfeld and the U.S. Government were literally embracing Saddam as a friend and ally many months after his atrocities against the Kurds and others in his country were known to the world. It was the invasion of Kuwait (and the threat to its oil) and not his violations of sanctity of human rights and life in Iraq that first made him our enemy.

I know everyone likes to blame America for weapons of mass destruction potentially being in Iraq, but has anyone thought that because Russia was having a fire sale of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons and Saddam already had good relations with the Russian government who had sold him so much hardware in the past, it might have been a justified concern?

The US is concerned enough to pay Russian scientists right now, why shouldn't we have been concerned that Saddam, with his next shipment of T-34 tanks wouldn't also have a biological agent or delivery system?

Which way did Russia vote in the UN again? I seem to remember them opposing the US just like most the left wing in this country.

The main question is whether the US should wait for nations to get their hands on nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons before acting to stop it?

Clinton did that on North Korea and look what happened?

Lemay seems to only remember evil empires. Maybe he has been to the Reagan library too many times. There have been plenty of empires that people wanted into for a variety of reasons.

Let me give you a list of Chinese empires that people immigrated to. Of course, in your haze from watching too much Fox News with Tony Snowjob I don't think you ever heard of them.

Shang
Zhou
Xin
Han
Sui
Tang
Song
( Yaun to a certain extent)
and Ming

It was a justified concern SH had WMD. We know because he was our ally when he was making them. We all know he had them just like we all know Lemay is trying to insult people on purpose just to incite a riot. Can you yell FIRE on the interents?

Brian,

I'd like to give Malqha the benefit of the doubt, but she has made three additional posts in this thread since I asked the initial question. Perhaps she just overlooked those specific posts, but it is also possible that she doesn't want to answer the question. Normally it is not something I would ask, but given the content of some of her posts and some letter that she has written in the past to the Star I have to admit that it makes me wonder. Still, all it would take is a simple yes or no on her part to clear this whole thing up. It would also be nice to see some of the anti-war folks around here demonstrate that they are also willing to take a stand against those that exibit their anti-semitism through denial of the holocaust.

Can you post a link to the letter?

If the Middle East had no OIL America would be about as involved as America is in Central Africa.

The war wasn't about WMD's. It was about oil.

It wasn't that Saddam threatened his neighbors. It is the fact that those neighbors have oil.

You can ask the average kid on the street. they know the truth because they aren't upset about being bamboozled like you guys are.

OIL.

Bubba Kidd, I think the regulars haven't taken you up on the chance to denounce anti-semitism because it seems so obvious. But if it makes you feel assured that any criticism of the administration coming from me is based solely off their failures, let me be the first to attack racism in all of its forms.

Tolerance is an American value. Although there is tolerance around the world, America puts our respect for diversity at the top of our ideology. We celebrate great Americans like MLK and Cesar Chavez with holidays. Being a genius is known as being an Einstein ( a great immigrant ). Our president says kind words for a variety of holy days.

Anyone that is a racist is down right anti-American. There are plenty of other nations for them, but America has moved past that stage in our growth.

I left you a link to one of my heroes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/581109.stm

I can't believe we have some Saddam defenders on this blog now. Saddam wasn't threatening his neighbors... LOL!!!

Yeah, these are the same people who have been going on their blame America tirades and can't admit the Holocaust occurred.

Well, let's see the argument still stands while everyone just goes into left-wing Air America like attacks instead of answering the facts posed by my previous posts.

Ex-soviet hardware was being used by Saddam and every group that is causing violence in the world seems to be carrying an AK-47 or a scud missle. It is/was always plausible that weapons of mass destruction was either there or being sought, especially with the lax security in Russia at the time and nuclear, chemical, and biological facilities.

I add another weapon to the list for you to think about.

Who makes the Katyusha rockets that were moving into Lebanon this past summer in shipments from Iran?

I'll give you a hint-- according to the Red army, these Katyusha's were called Stalin's Organs and the name Katyusha is a classic World war two Russian song.

Weird how Hezbollah, the Taliban, the Iraq Insurgency all have their hands on this stuff, not too mention Iran.

Yet, the blame America for world violence keeps blaming on.

The issue is proliferation and no one seems to get that. They would rather wait until nations that don't like us get the bomb or have chemical or biological stockpiles.

If democrats are truly against the war, why don't they cut funding to appeal to the wackos on this blog?

I guess it's more I voted for the war before I voted against it.

Check out this. US places financial restrictions on 3 Syrian entities for pursuing unconventional WMD weapons.

Question to bloggers, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

The German people excused their collective role in the War AND the Holocaust with the excuse, "But what could WE do to stop it? We were only trying to be loyal Germans."

For those that DON'T believe it happened I present H. I attended H.'s 90th birthday celebration Saturday. You may have seen H. in Spielberg's magnificent video documentary, consisting of first hand accounts as told by the actual concentration camp survivors. H. told the story of hiding under bodies in a Ghetto morgue for hours after being chased by German guards. H. has plenty to say about the Holocaust, as do his wife andmany of their friends who are also survivors. For those that don't believe in the Holocaust...God help you.

Yet the Holocaust happened for one reason. Too many otherwise good people found it easier to keep quiet and support their insane leaders rather than ask questions and be labeled as less than patriotic. Those otherwise good people are to blame. Yet the ones who insist their neighbors shut up and obey those insane leaders, who attempt to marginalize as unpatriotic or liberal those that dare speak up....hold more blame. God help them.

If you don't believe me about Russia, here is another proliferation story that the blame America crowd probably hates.

The Russian Foreign Minister is complaining that we are putting sancions on firms doing business with Syria and Iran.

Question for bloggers-- are these sanctions justified?

I'm sure the blame America crowd is so glad Clinton/Gore decided they wanted to give IMF bailout to Yeltsin during the 90's. Now, we can be opposed by Russia when they want to sell Scuds/AK-47's/Katyushas to radical fundamentalists and crazies throughout the world.

And then these bloggers have the nerve to say we are at fault for violence in the world. What a joke...

To O.I.L.,

Of course the war is about oil. You seem to think that conservatives are naive about that. Naturally those who support the war look for a moral cause to help bolster support for the war. Democrats do the same thing when every cause is always "for children". But I don't think that anyone on either side of the isle is really dumb enough to believe that we would care this much about Iraq if it didn't have some of the largest oil reserves in the world. If this was only about liberating people from a brutal dictator then we would be doing this sort of thing all over the world. Hell, this country has a well documented history of actually supporting brutal dictators.

But all of that being said, I also think it is naive to think that oil doesn't matter. In the industrialized world oil is everything. It is amazing to me that we have a large portion of the public that doesn't want oil exploration or involvement in securing the supply of oil from the middle east, yet simultaneously complain about heating oil gas prices. It seems a bit ridiculous. But the fact is that if our supply of oil were cut off tomorrow life as we know it would end. Our economy would grind to a halt, there would be massive unemployment, and most likely the entire industrialized world would fall into a major economic downturn. And don't forget that the last time that happened we ended up in a global world war. Don't think that would happen? I guarantee that if the supply of middle east oil were cut off, within 90 days you would have mass pandemonium and Americans killing each other in the street.

I agree that we need to do something about our dependence on foreign oil and that it is vital for our country to develop new energy technologies to move us in that direction. But at the same time we have to be realistic about our present situation and the very real vulnerability the world faces with regard to the situation in the middle east. This is very serious business and something that the American public needs to become more educated about.

Then, BK, why haven't our leaders done something about it? They've known for 30 years and more that this day would come yet MPG ratings aren't really much more than they were then. BigOil has been given MORE control over the nation's energy policies than ever. The Bush administration has seemingly done all they can to thwart ALL attempts to wean the US off MidEast oil. By either accident or design the White House has set us on a path towards some not-too-distant oil-based doomsday and all its policies and initiatives have proven disastrous...including the Iraq War.

At this point what is the duty of every American?

I'm the Decider in Chief and I have decided BubbaK does not know what he is talking about and comes off as a jerk!

The reason our leaders haven't done more is that the public is apathetic on this issue. It is also silly to pin all the blame on the Bush Administration when this has been a known problem since the 1973 OPEC oil embargo. This is not a partisan issue, nor have republicans been the only party at fault for a lack of action.

The truth is that Americans love cheap gas and their big SUVs. Americans also seem to have short memories, and most don't seem willing to make sacrifices for a greater good. Unfortunately in this country it takes a crisis for the people to unite behind a cause, and even then the unity is often short-lived.

We live in a society of contradictions. People want cheap gasoline and heating oil, and a strong economy to provide good jobs. At the same time they don't want offshore oil drilling, nuclear power plants, air pollution, or committing our troops to foreign wars.

It's kind of like how Americans want to eat as much as they want and not exercise, yet take a pill or get lyposuction to remain thin.

In a democracy we are the government, and our government is simply a reflection of us. What then is the duty of very American, you ask? In this case the duty of Americans is to educate themselves on the issues and to figure out how they can personally make a difference. And making a difference doesn't mean passing taxes on someone else, or passing laws that only impact big corporations or rich people. It means for every person to find a way to personally commit themselves and sacrifice for the common good. Sometimes even little things can make a difference, but no progress will be made so long as we continue to have a society where individuals refuse personal sacrifice and instead choose to point the finger at everyone else.

Mr. Decider in Chief is a clear example of the problem we face in this country. He represents those that are selfish and choose to throw stones, instead of offering their own ideas and being part of the solution.

National Apathy is no excuse for leaders that can not or will not guide America into the future.

When Asia's and Mexico's financial markets were going into tailspin in the mid-1990s it was personal will & leadership that appeared on national prime time news almost every evening to speak directly to the Nation about the reasons and the solutions to a very complicated and poorly understood problem that could have jump started an international banking freefall. The President explained to an ignorant & apathetic nation (that had polled early on AGAINST any such bailout)in simple terms what could happen, what needed to be done and what risks & sacrifices America needed to make to stave off disaster. In the end the American people supported the bailout of Asian banks and Mexican debt renegotiation and the US came out on top, having made almost $20B in profit on the deals.

National Apathy is why we have national leaders.

BubbaK is apathy in action. Rather that working he sits around blogging all day and calling names like a girlie man. He is probably on welfare.

Uh huh. OK Decider in Chief, why don't you enlighten the rest of us on your ideas on this subject... that is, if you have any. It is cowardly just to sit back and the shadows and take pot shots at others without offering any contribution of your own.

I have decided we will give all americans a check for $1,500 a year, we will then put them on a bus to Tijuana to have all their medical work done at low cost hospitals. If they have any money left they can party in TJ and then come home. This will stimulate the Mexican economy and will also end illegal immigration.

Alrighty then. My guess is that most Americans who actually have $1500 still opt out of having their medical care done at Mexican hospitals. Interesting idea however.

Mr. Lemay, I am sorry I am confused. What is "sancions" does it have something to do with persuit?

Maybez know hes wil leaf Malqda alone becize he isa hypocrite!

Har!

To O.I.L.,

Of course the war is about oil. You seem to think that conservatives are naive about that. Naturally those who support the war look for a moral cause to help bolster support for the war. Democrats do the same thing when every cause is always "for children". But I don't think that anyone on either side of the isle is really dumb enough to believe that we would care this much about Iraq if it didn't have some of the largest oil reserves in the world. If this was only about liberating people from a brutal dictator then we would be doing this sort of thing all over the world. Hell, this country has a well documented history of actually supporting brutal dictators.

But all of that being said, I also think it is naive to think that oil doesn't matter. In the industrialized world oil is everything. It is amazing to me that we have a large portion of the public that doesn't want oil exploration or involvement in securing the supply of oil from the middle east, yet simultaneously complain about heating oil gas prices. It seems a bit ridiculous. But the fact is that if our supply of oil were cut off tomorrow life as we know it would end. Our economy would grind to a halt, there would be massive unemployment, and most likely the entire industrialized world would fall into a major economic downturn. And don't forget that the last time that happened we ended up in a global world war. Don't think that would happen? I guarantee that if the supply of middle east oil were cut off, within 90 days you would have mass pandemonium and Americans killing each other in the street.

I agree that we need to do something about our dependence on foreign oil and that it is vital for our country to develop new energy technologies to move us in that direction. But at the same time we have to be realistic about our present situation and the very real vulnerability the world faces with regard to the situation in the middle east. This is very serious business and something that the American public needs to become more educated about.

Posted by: Bubba Kidd at January 8, 2007 07:59 AM

So therefore it is OK to travel half way across the world, attack a country that never attacked us, kill 655,000 Iraqis and 3000 of our young men and women, run up the debt of this country and not be able to account for the money that was suppose to be used to rebuild Iraq to get cheap oil. Maybe we should have tried a diplomatic solution instead.

The reason our leaders haven't done more is that the public is apathetic on this issue.

Posted by: Bubba Kidd at January 8, 2007 09:51 AM

Yeah that's why there is still a waiting list to get a hybrid car.

Anyone that is a racist is down right anti-American. There are plenty of other nations for them, but America has moved past that stage in our growth.

Posted by: Brian at January 7, 2007 10:21 PM

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!
You can't be serious!!!

You are actually trying to tell me with a straight face that there is no racism in America. Wow. You need to get out a little.

We all just got bent out of shape because one of our congressmen wanted to take his oath of office on a Koran.

In a democracy we are the government, and our government is simply a reflection of us.

Posted by: Bubba Kidd at January 8, 2007 09:51 AM

I think logic is something you simply lack. If you don't see that this goverment is run by the elite then you are simply burying you head in the sand. George Bush is a reflection of me? He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never had to worry about having a job or making the rent or providing food for his family. That is why it is so easy for him to send the poor kids, who joined the army to get an education or put food on their families table, to war.

Another example of twisted logic from BK:

Based on your reasoning a person isn't entitled to an opinion on healthcare unless they presently work in a hospital. They also can't have an opinion on public safety unless actively employed as a firefighter or a cop. No opinion is allowed on education unless a person is working as a teacher in a classroom. And even retired military with a child serving in combat can't have an opinion on the subject unless they personally re-enlist.

No actually what it means is a person isn't entitled to an opinion on heathcare unless they recieve healthcare or need heathcare (which is pretty much everyone). No opinion is allowed on public saftey unless they are affected by public saftey (again which is everyone). And so on.

It is wonderful to make up you own rules but try to have them make sense.

Wojo,
Give it up, BubbaK cannot be reached through logic, he is an extremist partisan who is paid by the VCRCC to sit and blog all day.

How, exactly, is America an empire? I've heard this assertion brandied about quite a bit, but always without any support, as if it's self-evident. The Iraqi government is sovereign, they make their own decisions. Granted, we sometimes exert pressure, but all governments try to exert pressure on others from time to time. It's called Diplomacy.

Forget asking about the Holocaust. It's existence is already an academic question. Let's ask some that matter today. Was the creation of Israel a mistake? Does Israel have the right to exist? To those who would say "If only Israel would return to the 1967 borders" - if the borders weren't acceptable then, without an international Islamofascist movement, why would they be acceptable now. These are much more pertinent, and more controversial questions.

While a student at UCLA in 2002 and 2003, I attended numerous events put on by ANSWER. They invariably morphed from anti-War into anti-Israel and pro-Affirmative Action. My favorite slogans were "education not bombs" and "Sharon = Hitler." By the way, "Neocon" means "Conservative Jew." The founding members were leftist radicals in the 1960s who switched to the right.

Brian, since you brought up Wisenthal, I'm sure you're familiar with another famous Holocaust survivor, Nobel Peace Laureate Ellie Wiesel. A man who very publicly argued in favor of the Iraq invasion. To those who call the supporters of the war "liars," is Ellie Wiesel also a liar? Perhaps he's just another member of the International Zionist Conspiracy. Brian, do you think that Israel was correct in illegally kidnapping Eichmann, in contravention of International Law? Moreover, was it moral for them to try him in Israel, which, according to commonly accepted historical principles, had no jurisdiction? Just another example of the Jewish state taking an illegal and immoral action.

The Holocaust did not happen because "otherwise good people" kept quiet and supported insane leaders. It happened because Europeans hated Jews. Period. If any tears were shed, it was out of joy. The Final Solution was the most successful of all pan-European projects because it was based on the one truly pan-European principle - Jew-hatred. In nearly every country that fell under Nazi occupation, the people willingly gave up their Jews. "Thank God someone is finally cleaning up this problem" was a much more common thought that "oh, those poor Jews." The moral of the story isn't "question your government," it's "Jews aren't safe anywhere."

The "oil" argument is ridiculous. Yes, oil is the lifeblood of any modern economy, but you're misinterpreting who was most interested in oil. France and Russia were opposed to the invasion because they both had significant contracts under Saddam. Moreover, extremely high-level ministers were being bribed by Saddam. The US is hardly reliant on Mid-East oil, we get about 15% of our oil from that region. It's the Europeans who get over 50% from there. If all we wanted was the oil, we could have just lifted sanctions, which is what the oil companies wanted. Iraq's current output is at levels below the invasion. And we've spent over $200 billion and counting on the war. It would have been vastly cheaper to just buy the oil. And we knew that at the time. If our intent in Afghanistan was to simply secure a non-Iranian pipeline from the Caspian, it would have been much better to leave the Taliban in and let them build it. Remember, evil capitalists are heartless, cold-blooded number crunchers who care nothing for human life. For them, the numbers added up much better under Saddam and Mullah Omar.

If Bush and the Jooz, I mean Neocons, were lying about WMDs, so were most of the world's intelligence agencies. Including those opposed to the war. Putin told Bush that Saddam was planning terrorist acts on US soil. In the wake of 9-11, you would have us take those threats lightly? This is all without touching on the Humanitarian concerns or Saddam's consistent violation of International Law.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warning/

We tried a diplomatic solution for 12 years. As I stated before, the anti-war movement offered no reasonable alternatives, and hence added precious little to the conversation.

We tried a diplomatic solution for 12 years. As I stated before, the anti-war movement offered no reasonable alternatives, and hence added precious little to the conversation.

Posted by: Owen at January 9, 2007 12:06 PM

Scott Ritter our own US weapons inspector said in 2002:

“There’s no doubt Iraq hasn’t fully complied with its disarmament obligations as set forth by the Security Council in its resolution. But on the other hand, since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated… We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn’t necessarily constitute a threat… It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn’t amount to much, but which is still prohibited… We can’t give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can’t close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can’t reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war.
We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services.
If Iraq were producing [chemical] weapons today, we’d have proof, pure and simple.

As of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance.”

And on 29 July 2001, Condoleezza Rice appeared on CNN Late Edition With Wolf Blitzer. Guest host John King asks her about the sanctions against Iraq. She replies:

"But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

And during a press conference on February 24, 2001 during Colin Powell's visit to Cairo, Egypt said;

"We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq..."

Looks like wojo kicked Owen's behind in this debate, I have decided!

I don't know why some jerks around here repeatedly feel it necessary to make posts using my name. Using fake posts on a blog is really chickenshit.

BubbaK, It is probably Owen who has been doing that, at least that is the word on the street.

How long to we have to wait for McCain to finish Bush's job? He has been defending his policies long enough.

I think JOHN MC CAIN JUST LOST his chance to became the next or ever president ,he hooked up with Bush to send more troops to Iraq .
We lost the war over there and there is no but no cure ,for that .
There is no way we can make it better ,only posseble make it worse .
Lieberman ,you lost your bid for president to ,you also hooked up with BUSH ,EVERY body knows
bushes brain is fried .
He and his gang ,will go down in history ,as the best crooks we ever had in the white house
Cheney -oil-Bush in denial .Who is running the Country ?
GOD please help us to save this great COUNTRY OF OURS .