After reading Mr. Fulton’s rant 3 times I am now absolutely enraged. Does he think we are complete idiots? He goes on a 5 page diatribe of political double-speak and refuses to back up his words while cleverly leaving himself an out every single step of the way.

"After thinking it over, I have decided not to introduce this ordinance immediately. In other words, although I share this goal I have decided pursuing this tactic is not the best way to reach the goal."

In other words you want to have it both ways.

“This plan (the non-existent Victoria Corridor plan) and code (also non-existent) will encourage the creation of high-quality office space in this area and almost certainly eliminate the possibility of new, extremely large-scale retail stores. “

“Encourage” does not mean “mandate”. “Almost certainly” does not mean “will”, and Mr. Fulton has already expressed his definition of “extremely large” as over 200,000 square feet.

“To me, there’s not much point in pursuing a particular tactic, especially if it could be divisive in the midst of an election season,”

This was one of the more enraging comments. He doesn’t want to back up his stated position in an election season. WOW. Is he going to take a leave of absence and just not represent us at all for the next few weeks? He is more worried about “dividing” the electorate than he is supporting his words with actual action.

“I realize other constituents have other concerns about Wal-Mart, but this is one (unionization) of the main concerns of labor organizations.”

Wow. Talk about dismissing opposition. Not hard to see why they ALL abandoned you this time around.

The Santa Maria ordinance is a typical – and perfectly legal – anti-big-box ordinance, which restricts all large retailers to using no more than 5% of their leasable floor area for the sale of non-taxable merchandise. Since groceries are exempt from taxation, such an ordinance effectively prohibits a Wal-Mart Super Center. These stores – typically 200,000 square feet or more – are a combination of a typical Wal-Mart store and a supermarket.

So here he says that Mr. Alger of the UFCW (who has been fighting and winning these fights against Wal-Mart for years) introduced to him a pre-written ordinance that accomplishes exactly what he claims to support but he doesn’t see the need to act on it. I have to go back to just how stupid do you think we are sir?

I told Mr. Alger that I was extremely unlikely to support a Wal-Mart Supercenter on Victoria and that, in the end, I did not think it would pass.

Here he goes again. “Extremely unlikely” does not mean he WON’T. He is leaving himself room again!

“However, I would like to turn the “no reason not to” statement around so that we can focus on the goal rather than the tactic.”

I am sure you would like to change the subject Mr. Fulton. But the truth is you have shown your true colors.

Mr Fulton, you sir are proving to be one arrogant individual who is leading Ventura straight into the arms of Wal-Mart. UFCW has been fighting Wal-Mart for years and you are seriously going to tell them what "tactics" work and which ones don't? I don't know Mr. Alger personally but a cursory Google search shows me that he has defeated other Big Box stores including Wal-Mart. How arrogant must you be to attempt to school him and UFCW on tactics? By the way, I am sure he appreciated you laying out publicly what I am sure was designed to be a semi private meeting... like the dozens of meetings City officials have had with Wal-Mart.

Refusing to take a position while implying you have. This is typical political bullshit. I previously voted for you sir, and I had every intention of doing it again, but you can forget it now. Since you seem so worried about the "election", perhaps I can add to your fears. We need bold leaders, not people who say one thing and do another.

I have to agree with "Done with Fulton." It is painfully obvious that he is trying to ride the fence on the issue. He also, is trying to play an artificial "I stood up to the big bad unions" card. It is all he had left since he has been denied labors endorsements.

This is shaping up to be an interesting fight.

Personally, I hate Wal-Mart and everything they stand for. They should be stopped and for Fulton to tell the UFCW that their tactic is wrong... takes a blindfull arrogance to the point of incompetence. Either that or thinks we were born in a cornfield yesterday afternoon. Those really are our two choices. He is either so arrogant that he believes the crap he is spewing, or he is selling out the City of Ventura. Either way he needs to go.

It never really occurred to me that this was going to be an election issue but maybe it is. (Which according to Fulton was UFCW's intent) Seems like he has forgotten who he works for because I have read previous articles with polling saying the City opposes Wal-Mart by about 60 or 70 percent.

It is 3 am so I may be slightly delirious but this sure seems like a dumb move on Fulton's part. I ask my son if he has been drinking, he says "no". I say "OK, let me smell your breath" he refuses. {{{DING!}}} Guess who has been caught?

Fulton is definitely trying some mental gymnastics with his rationale for not putting in the very protections he says he supports. Many things in life may not be "necessary" in ones opinion but are good ideas and protections anyway. The point has been made already but Wal-Mart (which I completely oppose) has an entire team of people with years of experience dealing with people like Councilman Fulton. Maybe you don't like the "tactics" Bill, but they are the only thing that has ever beaten these guys.

If you want your car fixed, you go to a mechanic. If you want your taxes done, you go to an accountant. You truly want to stop Wal-Mart? You go to those who have beaten them before. By his own admission did and then cast them aside. Look at where we are as a nation because of the arrogance of one man who knew better than the experts. Councilman Fulton portrays himself as the kind of guy who would dismiss his attorney and defend himself... in other words a fool.

Problem is I don't really think he is a fool... I think he wants the Wal-Mart and doesn't want people to know it before the election which is clearly on his mind. That makes him a liar and a traitor to all of us who have trusted him. SHAME!

What doesn't Bill Fulton understand? If you oppose something, you work to prevent it. Bill tried to explain himself and wound up talking himself into a heap of trouble. I won't go so far as calling him a traitor, but I will say it is quite evident that our councilman is being less then forthright.

Bill, if you keep worrying about how something "looks", you're not going to have much to worry about in a few weeks because you'll be sitting at home.

Step up and do the right thing man.

It doesn't make much sense that Bill Fulton would do this, unless he really wants the store. I agree with everyone else -- he is selling us out.

I realize I will be subject to massive flame throwing here, but I will say I agree with Bill. They are in the middle of a very thoughtful planning process that will effectively limit a Wal-mart supercenter with groceries from coming to Victoria.

What is the point of introducing an ordinance that would do what our planning process is already doing? Would you expect him to do it just to passify the anti-Wal-mart folks during an election cycle? Bill has way too much integrity for that.

That particular ordinance would not limit a regular Wal-mart from coming to town. As he pointed out, Santa Maria has a regular Wal-mart.

I will repeat again from my other posts: I am NOT a Wal-mart fan. I won't shop there if it comes. But let's let the system work before we pass judgement.

Bill when you post, just use your name ok? You're an elected official not a grade schooler.

To ask "what is the point" means you know nothing about how Wal-Mart works. It implies that you know better than those who have been fighting Wal-Mart in City after City after City across the country.

If Wal-Mart files plans today, THERE IS NO LAW IN PLACE TO STOP THEM. The City Council passed an interim ordinance to protect against Wal-Mart filing while they were working on their big plan. That ordinance expired and now leaves Ventura wide open.

THAT IS WHY!

Bill when you post, just use your name ok? You're an elected official not a grade schooler.

To ask "what is the point" means you know nothing about how Wal-Mart works. It implies that you know better than those who have been fighting Wal-Mart in City after City after City across the country.

If Wal-Mart files plans today, THERE IS NO LAW IN PLACE TO STOP THEM. The City Council passed an interim ordinance to protect against Wal-Mart filing while they were working on their big plan. That ordinance expired and now leaves Ventura wide open.

THAT IS WHY!

Bill, you are OBVIOUSLY posting as someone else.

"Bill has way too much integrity for that." Puuuuhhhhlees

"That particular ordinance would not limit a regular Wal-mart from coming to town."

My understanding is the only people who have seen that ordinance are Bill Fulton and those who wrote it. Pathetic.

Oh I am sure now you'll deny it but c'mon pal, that's as lame as it gets.

BILL FULTON IS THE PEST.

Pest Up Icide

Am I the pest or am I the pesticide criticism howdy give me the vote don't let your vote ride

Am I the spur the spur in their side cowboy up why does the 1st. Amendment make them want to hide

I am pest up icide the Brown Act spurs me on shift howdy tell me how come they want the 1st. Amendment to begone

Am I the thorn the thorn in their side bronc up greenhorn my 1st. Amendment tongue has been untied

Am I their Achilles heel a pain in their ass criticism howdy every citizen should get an answer to their ask

I am pest up icide the 1st. Amendment is wild bronc up the Brown Act is my protection of their beguile

Am I the pest or am I the pesticide dispute howdy guess again the 1st. Amendment ain't going bye bye

Accordingly a function of free speech under our system of government is to invite dispute. It may indeed best serve its high purpose when it induces a condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and challenging. It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea. (Terminiello v. City of Chicago (1949) 337 U.S. 1, 4-5, 69 S.Ct. 894, 896, 93 L.Ed. 1131)

The Brown Act specifically provides that this board may “not prohibit public criticism of the policies, procedures, programs, or services of the agency, or of the acts or omissions of this board.” (California Government Code §54954.3(c).)

Bill really screwed up. He is trying to ride the fence and ignoring his constituents. ACTIONS BILL NOT EMPTY WORDS!

Here come the flames...

Just so you know: I am a nice (really!) middle-aged lady who is active in Ventura grassroots and volunteer activities. I am a frequent poster on this blog. I am using my real first name.

I don't think the real Bill has time to post here.

I am just basing my opinion on what Bill wrote in his own blog and what I understand from my own involvement in community activities. The planning dept. is working on exactly what you want for that site. No supercenter will be allowed. Our general plan, adopted in 2005, specifically discourages anything over 90,000 sq. ft., which a super center would be. I am sure this will be adopted.

P.S. guys,
Brian, who owns this blog, knows who I am. He can vouch for me!

If I had a dollar for every General Plan that was ignored I'd be a millionaire.

Discourages doesn't mean forbids.

Look. We put in an interim ordinance to protect us against Wal-Mart. That ordinance expired which by definition means that the protections are gone.

Wal-Mart has a history of driving trucks through loopholes.

Our Planning Commission will NOT approve anything that will not conform to our General Plan for that area.

Just some friendly advice: Be very careful with your votes. If you don't support our incumbents, who were supportive of the temporary Victoria moratorium, you may end with one of the challengers this year who wasn't. There are several of them.

I admire that Bill has the courage to publicly state his thoughts on this issue. A lot of folks are dancing around it.

Marie,

That was word-for-word what Bill Fulton said to me in our meeting.

The problem is that Bill is dancing around the issue himself. He has yet to articulate any guarantee that he will oppose Wall-Mart.

I have been in politics long enough to know that when it takes you 2,000 words to explain a position of "no", something is askew.

There was not one single solitary definitive position taken by Bill Fulton, other than to deny our request to follow through with his publicly stated position. He expressed to me that he wanted to hear from his constituents. I can respect that, and have encouraged them to do just that.

Jim,

All I can say is that if you are hearing the same thing from Bill and also from me, it is probably true. I will admit here publicly that I am rooting for all three incumbents. There is one challenger who I also like very much. I don't know the others at all.

Bill was horribly wordy in his column, though, I'll agree.

Bill Fulton has been called out for the liar he is. His diatribe was filled with bobs and weaves, zigs and zags... just what you would expect from a politician.

One thing he made clear, he has no intention of paying anything more than lip-service to those of us who strongly oppose Wal-Mart.

The bottom line is this. The candidate(s) who have the guts to step up and say straight out "I WILL vote against a Walmart in Ventura" is the candidate(s) who get my vote. End of story.

But what would they have to vote on? As we have learned, a Santa Maria-type ordinance or "big box ban" will effectively be in place for that section of Victoria with our new coding as specified by our 2005 General Plan.

There is not much else they can do if Wal-mart wants to go to a smaller store in that space. If they meet the new rules and regulations for that site, what can be done? Be realistic now. I want to hear you spell out exactly what they can do to prevent a regular Wal-mart from occupying the same size space Kmart does.

And this has to be something that could get enough support to actually guarantee passage. There is no point otherwise. I am not being confrontational, merely curious.

Fulton is a complete sell-out, I agree. Speaking of WalMart, there was a reference to Mike Gibson in Brian's introduction to this thread and what's up with his campaign. One thing I have to say about this guy is he has integrity. He stands up for what he believes, like him or not, and doesn't do the "bob & weave" act like Bill Fulton is famous for. Frankly, I'm not a big WalMart fan, but I respect Gibson for saying he is openly 10 times more than what I hear Fulton spewing out of both sides of his mouth. I think we need someone like him on the Council, actually. I'm through with the liars!

Marie,

Let me be clear. There is currently NO ordinance or law in effect that would prohibit Wal-Mart from going in. But Wal-Mart has NO intention of moving into the existing K-mart. A Super-Center ordinance will block the Super-Center threat (for now) and is one step in a larger plan. We are on the verge of scrapping the Super Center ordinance and going for the long-ball.

It is completely incomprehensible that any elected official who proclaims to hold a position not to back up that position with actions.

In the end, we may end up going over the heads of the City Council and go straight to the voters. My guess is that the City Council won't like what we come up with because it would remove them completely from the equation and will in all likelihood effectively flat-out ban Wal-Mart from the city.

I can tell you this. These never-ending fights with Wal-Mart need to stop. The way for us to do that will be to seal loopholes in the law that will either force Wal-Mart to straighten up their act or leave town.

The bottom line is that if Wal-Mart can learn to be a good neighbor, and a fair employer they have much to contribute. But as long as they keep up their current shenanigans, bleeding tax coffers dry, driving down wages, and abusing their employees, we will fight them on every road of every City of every State they attempt to build in.

In reference to Gibson and to answer Brian's question on the fund-raising issue, I guess when you got it, you don't need to raise it. I don't think the guy's loaded personally, but his family sure is. I know his father recently donated $1.2 million to the Los Angeles County Arts Foundation within the last couple of years. He claims not to have strong ties to his family, but I think they're supporting his race.

Jim,

That's interesting news. I had not heard you were thinking of going directly to the voters. So you would be running a grassroots petition drive? When would it appear on the ballot? February?

Jim Alger, why is your website linked to CAUSE - which is a union organizing CBO?

Also, are you the same Jim Alger who recently ran against Cameron Smythe in the Assembly race? If so, you must have recently moved to Ventura.

Who cares who Jim is and what website is linked to what? CAUSE opposes Wal-Mart, so they linked to the Stop Wal-Mart Coalition, Makes sense to me.

The issue here is the nightmare that awaits us if these sneaky council-members get away with this double talk.

More choices for consumers. Such a nightmare, indeed. I can hardly wait for WalMart to come to Ventura and I hope your special interest group (CAUSE), fails miserably, as I'm sure it will. People in this community have a special affinity for the free market and its ability to function as it was intended. If people don't value WalMart, they won't shop there and it will fail. But, let the free market decide not special interest groups like CAUSE, who are only interested in lining their pockets with union members' dues.

I'm glad Bill Fulton has taken a strong stand to adamantly support WalMart. He's absolutely right. The City of Ventura needs the sales tax revenue to sustain it into the future.

Katie - just to clarify who CAUSE is (this information is per their website):

Who We Are
The Central Coast Alliance United for A Sustainable Economy (CAUSE) is a non-profit community planning and policy research center serving the Central Coast Region of Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties.

Our Mission
Our mission is to improve the standard of living and quality of life of low and moderate income working people in the central coast region through the promotion of economic and social justice, utilizing such strategies as policy advocacy, research, organizing, leadership development and community building.

Our Work
Working through hundreds of activist volunteers and in collaboration with many of the region's community, labor, environmental and interfaith organizations, CAUSE's activities focus on the four areas of Living Wage and Accountable Development, Health Coverage Expansion, Women's Economic Justice, and Fair Representation.

And just so we are all clear - the various unions do their own organizing through their own organizers. They don't ask CBO's or other outside organizations to do that for them - why would they when they have paid staff that is hired and trained to specifically do that for them. (If you don't understand the process you shouldn't be speaking about it because all you are doing in effect is providing false information.)

Also, CAUSE isn't running the campaign, UFCW is (or didn't you read Bills' diatribe?)

SPECIAL INTERESTS??? I love the way that overused demonizing phrase is tossed like a frisbee until it loses all meaning. The only "special interest" here is Wal-Mart. While all the die-hard anti-lobbyists seethe at the mention of gun control lobbies, pro-Israel lobbies, environmental lobbies... they grovel at the feet of the Wal-Mart lobby. This special interest lobby makes its way from city to city, seducing City Councils, pitting city against city and neighbor against neighbor while eating up small businesses along the way. They are savvy enough to infiltrate the blogs with their rhetoric and promises of savings and a "NEW" Ventura.

Whether it is CAUSE or UFCW doesn't matter. You do not need to be a pro-union fan (I am neutral where they are concerned), to recognize when they are right. On the issue of Wal-Mart, they are right.

I Care - Please Explain to me how it is that any organization (other than a "union") will benefit from union members dues?? There really is no one other than the union members who are benefiting from paying union dues to their respective local unions. In order to be a union member you have to belong to a union (and the union would be who you pay "dues" to - so again if you don't understand the process you shouldn't be speaking about it because all you are doing in effect is providing false information). Last time I checked CAUSE was NOT a "membership organization" so they don't get any dues.

PLEASE LET'S GET BACK TO THE REAL ISSUE AND THAT IS WALMART AND COMMUNITY OPPOSITION TO WALMART COMING TO VENTURA.

Matt,

Many workers refuse, or try to refuse, to join unions because their dues get used for purposed they don't necessarily support, such as campaigning for candidates or ballot measures that the individual member may not support. This is the worst kind of thuggery when you're forced to join a union and forced to pay dues with no direct say in how the money is spent. This is not false information. This is fact!

I care - The union I belong to is a non-profit employee organization that operates almost solely from member dues. Dues that are used to: Negotiate strong contracts, defend members and enforce contract rights, organize new members to improve bargaining strength in existing workplaces and to improve standards in a particular industry, train and support Shop Stewards and other union activists, push for laws to protect and expand workers’ rights on the job, keep members informed through newsletters, union publications and the website, and provide educational opportunities for union members. When employees join together to form a union, they can pull together their various ideas and concerns in a unified voice with far more power than speaking alone. I do enjoy the protection of a legally binding contract, negotiated and voted on by me and my co-workers. As a union member I gain the right to negotiate with my employer as an equal and bargain over my wages, benefits, retirement, employer policies, schedules, hours of work, health and safety, job security and many other important workplace issues. There’s no doubt union workers fare better in the work world. I have never at any time been 'forced' to do anything I didn't want to do. Everyone has the right to have a voice and by that it is their own responsibility to stay informed, attend membership meetings, participate, etc. The reality is that most people don’t want to join a union or organize their workplace because they don't know the facts and for fear that their employer will fire them or in some other way retaliate against them for wanting a collective bargaining unit to represent them. That is the reality. It is the employer who acts in this capacity that are “thugs”.

AGAIN, CAN WE GET ON WITH THE REAL ISSUE HERE AND THAT IS COMMUNITY OPPOSITION TO WALMART COMING TO VENTURA.

Matt,

That is the old trick with the 2 or 3 pro-Wal-Mart people... they want to make it about unions, as if we are ashamed.

The fact is EVERY employee union or not benefits from the hard work of labor unions. There is a reason we have things such as sick pay, vacation, weekends and 40 hour work weeks not to mention any health care at all. Unions are the sole reason there is even a national discussion regarding health care in this country.

"I care" - Like ANY organization the majority will sometimes make decisions some disagree with. But labor unions won't support a candidate who is anti-workers rights, or in any way harmful to the cause of employee protections.

The reality is, there are very good reasons that professionals who deal with legislators on a daily basis recommend one candidate, or ballot measure over another. As one of those people I can tell you, 100% of the time it goes far beyond the sound-bite pro and con arguments. For example, we have a difference of opinion with Mr. Fulton currently, doesn't mean he is anti-labor. I just have been doing this long enough to know he is dead wrong on his tactic of inaction on THIS issue. He has been generally supportive of workers, but we were really counting on him to step up to the plate and back up his veiled position with solid action -- he has chosen not to do that and has dug himself into a hole he really can't change his mind about now politically. That is unfortunate and as a result he lost the support of some of organized labor, specifically the union that represents those whose jobs are directly threatened (UFCW) as well as the Central Labor council and from the sound of things, a portion of his constituency.

The ironic part here is that while UFCW opposed the Wal-Mart, we were requested by the community to step up and forcefully fight this project. It may have happened anyway, but the community came to us.

The reality is, introducing the ordinance would have been a great first step, a huge good-faith gesture, and gone a long way to pacify fears city council-members may be "playing both sides of the fence". It also would have allowed us to focus resources on other battles instead of pouring money into this fight. But we have to protect these jobs, and the quality of life in Ventura.

Keep something in mind here folks. This isn't a 2% raise we are fighting for... this is the jobs, the livelihood of hundreds of local workers. Your friends, your neighbors, maybe even relatives. This is a fight for their survival. All the spin in the world won't take that away. A line in the sand is being drawn and I for one am damn proud to be part of the organization that has drawn that line.

Jim, you didn't answer my second question. Are you the same Jim who ran for office and do you live in Ventura?

I know exactly what CAUSE is - it is a union organizing CBO and it doesn't want Wal-Mart because it isn't a union shop. It is a special interest organization.

Hi Jim,

But still.... I'm trying to look at this from Bill's point of view. What good would it do to push for an ordinance that would effectively do what our planning process is already doing? It would absolutely look like grandstanding to pander to the anti-Wal-mart folks. Election year grandstanding doesn't sit very well with voters or fellow councilmembers.

I'm still amused that you thought I was Bill earlier in the thread. It amuses me because I know he would be absolutely appalled at the thought that somebody mistook me for him.

Hi Katie,

I see you've also been doing web research. If this is the same Mr. Alger I just found, he's got quite a track record for fighting Wal-marts and Home Depots, too.

Hey Marie,

I can't stand the way special interest groups try to control the elections and the Wal-Mart issue is the litmus test for the upcoming Ventura City Council race. CAUSE is a pro-union organization and I suspect Jim Alger's organization is the same.

If it is the same Jim Alger that you linked to - he doesn't even live in the county. He is either trolling for future votes or is on the union payroll.

Unions do their own organizing. I think you may be getting COMMUNITY organizing confused with union organizing which are really two separate things. There isn't anything wrong with being a pro-union organization or an organization who believes in living wage standards or a company who wants to pay their employees fairly and give them health benefits, etc. Lets not forget that our policemen, firemen, nurses, teachers, etc. are represented under collective bargaining units. Sounds to me like you have an issue with unions and if that is the case I suggest that you take those issues directly to them. Let's try to stay on task here, the issue is about WalMart and our community.

And I too have been doing my own research.....

Matt - that's the point. The community hasn't been organizing. Any organizing has been done by CBO's like CAUSE - which isn't upfront about what it is doing or by unions like SEIU, etc.

Only those who oppose something use negative connotations like “special interest groups”. If you don’t like the way things are, try changing it – instead of complaining about it. Oh but then that might require you to call yourself a “special interest”. As for community organizing I have personally been involved in such activities so I know it is happening - much more than most of us probably think it is.

Katie,

I agree with you on special interest groups. But isn't the Chamber of Commerce a special interest group, too? And they are angry that the council hasn't let a Wal-mart just sail in there.

Not trying to be confrontational, really. Just trying to point out that various well organized groups are involved with this on both sides.

Sorry, but a special interest group is a special interest group.

If you are personally involved, just be aware of who is driving it. Or maybe you know and you work for them.

So far the only people who oppose Wal-Mart are the unions and people who don't want the competition.

But given how packed Trader Joe's is, I think people like the low prices.

Katie,

I have no personal interest in the anti-Wal-mart group at all nor do I have any friends or acquaintances involved. I am aware of who is driving the dialogue on both sides, though.

Marie,

I think you could probably effectively make the argument that the Chamber of Commerce is a "special interest group." The difference, of course, being that the Chamber's main mission is to bring jobs, businesses, and economic opportunity into the community. The Chamber's efforts feed the City's revenue stream directly by these activities, so they should be considered an important and vital interest group in terms of how they provide for the City's very existence and ability to sustain itself economically.

Livable Ventura, CAUSE, VCCORD, and some of these other groups are much more narrowly focused and, in many instances, they could be viewed as hampering the City's economic progress. That seems to be what the Ventura City Council election is shaping up to be all about, by the way. A couple of challengers in the race have done a great job of focusing the debate on this, as reflected in today's article in the Star. The incumbents seem to be in defensive mode, all of a sudden, and rightfully so.

Marie, I think the difference is the Chamber is pro-business not necessarily pro-Wal Mart. And I do think our entire economy, etc. is based on being pro-business.

I don't live in Ventura but I do have a problem shutting the doors on a particular busines. CAUSE met with some of the City Council members earlier and sent out e-mail after e-mail encouraging people to come to the city council meetings but they never once said what they were.

Both sides (anti-Wal Mart, pro Development at any cost) are making the Wal-Mart situation the issue de jour for the elections.

Katie,

Perhaps you should read my posts, or Mr. Fulton's blog post. Neither I nor he have made no secret of whom I work for. It isn't news.

"I Care, That's Who," is right. Economic development is shaping up as the topic for the election season. And both sides of the Wal-mart issue are putting heavy, heavy pressure on the council.

Walmart, the company no one likes and no one wants in their town, but nearly everyone drives to for good shopping and fair prices. No one wants to work for Walmart, but the majority of its employees, who I have spoken with, always say the same thing; they like working for Walmart. You figure!

Fulton, wow, my man. Looks like you've been cooked! Did you catch the name of that rattlesnake that bit you? Gibson, maybe?

Moondoggie, your point, sarcasm aside, is not entirely without merit. Where you make your error is assuming "noone" likes Wal-Mart, of course a great deal of people like Wal-Mart, or moreover the feeling they are getting lower prices. The problem is, they aren't. The cost is just well hidden.

The average Wal-Mart Super-Center COSTS us over $400,000.00 a year in social service costs 9welfare, food stamps, WIC, Medical etc). That money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of your tax dollars.

The average person is not aware (because they don't see it) of Wal-Marts cost to our job market by forcing manufacturing jobs to China... They just know cousin Bob's factory shut down and don't connect the two dots.

The average person is not aware of the horrific working conditions in Chinese sweatshops (while proudly flying the US flag).

I don't take issue with those who don't know. I take issue with those who know and don't give a damn because they "saved" 5 bucks on a pair of jeans.

As for your "speaking with the majority of Wal-Marts employees" that statement is so ridiculous on its face I won't even bother responding to it.

Alger, stop trying to reinvent this country with your fascist theories. WalMart should not, and will not, be bullied from coming into this community by you and your union thugs! I'm proud to say that we live in a free market society, which for you business obstructionists, means that business will thrive when the demand exists for it. That's the succes story of WalMart in one short sentence. Simple Economics 101, if there is a market demand, someone will come in and fill it. Amen.

You are using the terms “fascism” and “free market” like they are going out of style. Based on your use of these terms you don’t even know what they mean or how they apply in modern America… let the teacher take you back to school for a minute or two.

A labor union is a collective bargaining unit that exists to get a better deal for workers. One only finds such organizations within democracies and other non-tyrannical governments. Calling the union’s fight against Wal-Mart fascist is beyond ridiculous.

It is equally ridiculous to say that because we live in a relatively free market system Wal-Mart should be allowed to go into Ventura and do as it pleases. In a democracy the people decide what laws/regulations business must abide by. Let us not forget that business is regulated for a reason and the idea of a totally free (unregulated) market has been proven disastrous right here on American soil.

If you really believe in libertarianism, where the free market corrects for everything and regulation is seen as oppressive, let me remind you of a few things. Remember history class? You may recall learning that in early America total corporate control saw people working in corporate towns, living in corporate homes, and shopping in the company owned store with little hope of freedom from their employer’s control. Think your phone bill is too high or that you pay too much for gas? Imagine if the U.S. government never broke up AT&T or the early oil monopoly? Think unregulated corporations protect their customers? You go ahead and eat at a restaurant the health inspector hasn’t visited and fly in an airplane not regulated by the FAA.

Even with protections companies still get greedy and screw us. Remember when Jack in the Box failed to heat burgers to the required minimum? They literally killed people. Remember when Value Jet broke FAA regulations for shipping oxygen containers? They literally killed people too. Remember when Ford and GM failed to recall vehicles they knew, without doubt, would cause some people to literally be burned to death… ask yourself what were these companies trying to do? Increase profits, cut costs, lower prices… Hmmm… ALWAYS the low price? Shouldn’t we value other factors such as how a business treats its workers, its suppliers, its neighbors and the society it resides in?

Bottom line - if Wal-Mart can not meet the standards the people of Ventura set, the company should not be allowed to operate within the city. The company needs to meet the standards of the community, if it is turned the other way round this, my friend, is when we head down the road towards fascism. Think about it – class dismissed

You arrogant, S.O.B., don't try and lecture me about your "theory" of American democracy and the business world. I was running a business when you were still running around in poopy diapers!

Stop running all over the universe for a moment with you over-active imagination and let's get back to the subject at hand, shall we, Miguelito? That subject is WalMart and their right, like any other business that presents a reasonable plan that fits the City's growth and development code and standards (which it does, according to the City Manager), to move into that space on Victoria.

In your world, whatever planet it is your occupying, they should be run out of town on a rail because they don't have unionized workers. Well, sorry, bub, it doesn't work that way. So, start your little petition, with all your other angry little union money-grubbers, and let's hope WalMart kicks your little a**** to the curb!

I think Michael's been listening to too much Air America.

If you'd like we could put a list together of Government's screw-ups that would be three times longer than corporate mishaps. The only difference is when private companies screw-up like Enron, Valuejet, and Mattel, they lose market share, consumers stop buying their products, they go out of business, and leaders get fired or even criminally prosecuted.

When government fails, government officials just get more money, power, and the managers who oversaw the disaster get raises. That way they learned their lesson.

I love it! What exquisite irony! You call a union fascist while supporting a corporation that has become the poster-child of corporate irresponsibility. You hope that Wal-Mart kicks those who support worker’s rights to the curb and you call me profane names. I can’t hardly believe it but you call unions money-grubbing while supporting Wal-Mart, WOW that is precious!! Did you really think about that before you typed it in anger? (and that anger is really not good for your blood pressure – chill out man)

Unions are not perfect, nor free from corruption, but I’ll take their side over Wal-Mart any day. Let’s talk money-grubbing shall we, unions don’t send jobs to China and India because they won’t pay fair wages. Union members don’t run around in a fleet of corporate Lier jets (Wal-Mart execs. literally do, you heard right - not one or two but a fleet of Lier jets) to lobby city officials. Unions don’t lobby to fight minimum wage increases or health care requirements while enjoying high wages and solid health care for themselves. Unions don’t allow for the hiring of many part-time workers so as to avoid paying benefits…

Wal-Mart’s abuses of people are many and certainly not a figment of my over-active imagination. Wal-Mart is by far our largest and most aggressive retailer and certainly not like any other business. Even so I do agree with you that Wal-Mart has the right to submit its plan to the city. The city, in turn, has the right and the responsibility to follow its own urban plan and enforce regulations and zoning codes. The people of Ventura, not Wal-Mart, have the right to write those codes. A Wal-Mart may indeed eventually occupy the old K-Mart site but I join the many workers, residents, and local business owners who feel that a giant general merchandise and grocery supercenter will destroy many of our other businesses and have an overall negative impact on Ventura.

Lastly please do not confuse my sarcastic writing style and my fun with your hypocrisy for arrogance. I am the one who is writing today in support of fair wages, health care, local control, and fair business practice. You on the other hand feel it is somehow OK to promote conditions for others you would never accept for yourself, isn’t that arrogant? Do you really think that deplorable working conditions abroad and low wages/no benefits at home are fine if you can save a buck on your general merchandise or grocery bill? Hey I don’t like my grocery bill lately but I will not kick a unionized Ralphs worker to the curb to save a couple bucks at a Wal-Mart Supercenter nor would I give up the flavor of Trader Joe’s for a plastic, cookie-cutter Wal-Mart.

Now excuse me, I need to go change my “poopy diapers”.

Government does indeed have an un-rivaled list of screw-ups but I don't think the government is planning to move into the K-Mart site.

You seriously aren't saying that business need not be regulated by government. It is the government that provides the criminal prosecution of which you speak.

True the market does provide a level of control over business just like our voting provides a level of control over government. Far from perfect huh? If a company is involved in bad practices that the customer does not see will the market control it? Do you really know how Wal-Mart treats it's employees, suppliers, and local community when you walk into the store?

Miguelito,

I'm sorry to say, but Mongo Flamo has your number, my friend. You are an arrogant S.O.B. In fact, I think he was being far too kind. The union's exert way too much political influence in today's world and, for them, it's all about money. Money to influence decision-making, money to twist arms, money to distort facts, money to do whatever is necessary to advance so-called fair wages and workers' rights. You know, as well as I do, that the very thing you're accusing WalMart of doing the unions engage in day and day out - influence peddling.

Let's talk facts here for just a second, if you don't mind. WalMart is not proposing a supercenter store at the Victoria site. That would conflict with the City's General Plan and development code, and would generate far too much traffic to be mitigable for the developer. So, please stop advancing false information. Second, WalMart, as long as it complies with the City's development and design standards, can legally come into that site. The only way WalMart can be prohibited, at this point, is by a local vote that prohibits big box stores from coming into Ventura as a whole. So, start your signature-gathering because this is the only way to stop WalMart at this stage of the game.

By the way, the citizens of Ventura (the voters) do have input in the process for determining what and how development occurs in the City. It's called public hearings and public review of the General Plan and each and every project that goes to the Planning Commission & City Council for approval. I think you need to educate yourself a little on government processes & procedures. All you seem to know about is the union side of things.

Now, back to those diapers, the room is starting to stink up!

What will be funny about all the WalMart whiners is when they vote for ex- WalMart Board of Director Hillary Clinton for President next year.

See even powerful democrats see the power of WalMart.

Chamber Member is right on.

Walmart is going to be great in Ventura reducing prices and keeping other retailers honest. I can't wait til it opens along with thousands of other consumers ready to get really good deals.

Yeeh-friggin'-hah!!! Yeah, those Clintons are quite the hyprocites aren't they? I say bring WalMart to town, let the chips fall where they may, and the free market system will determine if it's a viable business entity, or not, like it always does, not the special interests - Livable Ventura, CAUSE, the retail unions, etc., etc. We certainly don't need union interests running interference on every development project proposal that comes before City Council.

It's nice to see Bentonville AR has discovered Brian Dennert's blog. Keep spinning boys. But be careful, you're getting dizzy.

At the end of the day it will be the PEOPLE of Ventura who will say whether or not we want Wal-Mart and all the crap that comes with them or not. You free market fools can see something else that is free... elections. Elections of those that agree with 65% of ventura that DOES NOT want Wal-Mart in town.

So, spin away boys... it is quite entertaining.

Mongo:

I've learned one thing over time. Liberals have pretty much nothing to say of value. You see it all the time on this blog. They go crazy with propaganda and lies, then when someone challenges them, they fall apart or go into cheap antics.

Now, that is entertaining.

Why is the Dantona thread not viewable? The Democratics eating their own too intense?

Just curious, "It's Nice", who are these Council candidates that agree with 65% of Ventura voters about not bringing Wal-Mart here? I don't think I've heard a single one of them come out against Wal-Mart. And you can understand why: (1) There's nothing they can legally do about preventing Wal-Mart from coming to Ventura, short of supporting a union effort to put something on the City ballot sometime in the future that would prohibit big boxes in the City; and (2) They all realize that Wal-Mart equals additional retail sales tax revenue for the City, which no one running for Council can deny that we need.

So, dream on, my friend.........

Wow Chastity, you can't read can you?

1) THERE IS SOMETHING THAT CITY COUNCIL CAN DO

2) Wal Mart COSTS taxpayers more than they generate

So, scroll um, get a god damn education and WAKE THE HELL UP!

The Dantona thread went away because Mongo Flamo posted something that crossed the line about one of the female bloggers there.

If democrats are so worried about WalMart employees getting help from the state, it's real simple. Cut the programs. Let's get rid of welfare, food stamps altogether.

Then, they don't cost the government anything. I'm fine with that. What say you liberals?

Ya know, I have noticed that all the Pro-Wal-Mart folks keep plowing through with he exact same talking points no matter how much their bs argument gets blown to shreds. They just ignore the post they don't agree with and scream into the echo chamber.

Why do I have to be "Liberal" to oppose slave wages?

Why do I have to be "Liberal" to oppose Child labor in sweatshop working conditions?

Why do I have to be "Liberal" to want full-time employment?

Why do I have to be "Liberal" to oppose more traffic, bad planning, and the worlds largest most predatory corporation?

Fact is, I am a Conservative, and I still oppose those things. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. Wal-Mart is unlike any other corporation so screw me for giving a damn about my city and caring more about my fellow Venturans than saving a buck on underwear.

Sure Cut, let them just starve to death while you right wing-nuts drive wages down so far they can't afford to feed their kids.

You are a sick human being, but a great spokesman for Wal-Mart.

What is a slave wage? I thought if you were a slave you didn't get paid anything. "Just me" is an oxymoron.

There you have it folks. Liberals whine about how the state covers WalMart employees and costs taxpayers money.

You say, fine cut the programs, so it won't costs taxpayers anything.

Like was said before. The hypocrisy of their propaganda knows no bounds.

Bill Clinton cut welfare. Is he a sick human being too. Oh yeah, you voted for him while his wife served on the WalMart Board of Directors.

Good job hypocrite.

How can we take out Target too? Target contracts with sweatshops in Saipan. Forget the company that isn't even here, let's go after the ones that are in Ventura right now.

I'll tell you this. I always thought people in Ventura were pretty normal and sane, but I never really knew they were so anti-capitalist until I read this blog.

Interesting that Mr. Fulton's blog doesn't appear to allow for comments. One way communication is a little out of date. Maybe he will read the comments here.

First, I am a long time voter and east Ventura homeowner. Building a Walmart on Victoria will have a truly detrimental effect on my quality of life. This is the number one local issue to me in this election. It cannot be allowed to happen and I will not vote for anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly oppose Walmart. I've read Mr. Fulton's column in Governing magazine for years and had admired him (even voted for him), but he's dead wrong this time.

We can dawdle along on this Victoria corridor plan for years and hope for the best as Mr. Fulton recommends, but it's very risky. Walmart can pop in with an application at any time, and without a big box ordinance in place, we'll be stuck. Walmart is too formidable an opponent to play around with like this.

One reason that you don't hear even more opposition to Walmart is that the city has lulled people into believing that the the project is dead. Coworkers see my "Stop Walmart" poster in my cube and ask me where a Walmart is going. I tell them it's right on Victoria and they're horrified. They all thought there was an ordinance in place. They don't know that it expired.

Please Mr. Fulton, care for our quality of life in east Ventura. Stop milking the east end to fund arts downtown. We are tired of being a big box cash cow.

If he doesn't take action to stop Walmart before the election, he's lost my vote.

"Bill Clinton cut welfare" "His wife served on theor board of directors" "cut the programs and save the state money" "slave wages = no wages"

Wow, spinning sure is getting to yoour head. Clinton didn't ELIMINATE welfare as you proposed, he OVERHAULED it to reduce fraud and abuse. I don't support Hillary so she is a non-issue with me. The average chinese worker earns between 45 and 120.00 a MONTH so it might as well be nothing.

But you don't give a crap, you saved a nickel on your surf wax.

Jackass

Toxic Terri, I'm curious, if you're not voting for Bill Fulton because of his backpedaling on Wal-Mart, just who are you going to vote for? I have not heard one candidate for City Council coming out against Wal-Mart. That's because they're trying to sweep it under the rug until after the election - especially the incumbents (Morehouse, Fulton & Weir).

Keep spinning,

A chinese worker earning 45-120 a month, but only spending 10-20 dollars is very good, but you wouldn't understand that because you only parrot talking points, you don't evaluate them.

Nice run away on Hillary. You'll be voting for her when she cleans up this winter and spring and is the democratic nominee. You'll be voting for a WalMart Board member. Good job hypocrite.

I thought you were worried about taxpayer flipping the bill for WalMart, but now you are spinning some more. You don't want to cut them off and force WalMart to pay more? Save me the spin, jackass.

I haven't seen any proof Gibson is seriously running. Why help a candidate that won't help himself.

Maybe he should find a new hobby.

Jerry Martin has come out strong against Wal-Mart... he is the only one.

As for mr. Bill - Your rants about knowing what someone may do and calling them a hypocrite based on your imaginary look into a crystal ball make you look like a fool.

Stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

I am sure he will change it fast but WHY DOES BILL FULTON'S MYSPACE PAGE SAY HE LIVES IN VENTURA ALABAMA????? Maybe he wants ventura to look like Alabama... Wal-Mart and all.

Bill Fulton's Mysapace profile as of October 7th 2007:

http://www.myspace.com/reelectfulton

"Re-Elect Bill Fulton November 6, 2007"

Male
49 years old
Ventura, Alabama
United States
Last Login: 7/20/2007

The only embarrassing thing is your inability to defend your own spin.

I see you dropped your earlier diatribes on Chinese labor and your hypocrisy on welfare.

What other talking points you got?

I guess you still have name-calling to hold on to.

Regarding Gibson's run for Council, I think he's running as hard as any of the other candidates. Look at all the interest in him on this blog, for example. If you attended any of the candidate forums, you'd see him taking the current City establishment to task on some real valid points that they've had to turn around and defend themselves on at every turn.

Speaking of evidence of not actively running, what about Carl Morehouse? He seems to be sitting back and resting on his laurels. I haven't seen one single sign around town for him, nor do I hear him say anything of substance at the candidates forums. At the one last Wednesday night at Ventura College, for example, he simply referred those in the audience to his campaign literature on a table in the back of the room if they wanted to know more about why he's running for reelection. Then he went on some weird rant about greenhouse gas emissions that had everyone in the room scratching their heads. Such arrogance.......

There is only interest on this blog in Gibson because his two supporters are camped on here tooting his horn at every opportunity. Nobody has even heard of this guy. He's only lived in Ventura two years and has not been involved in any activities here at all from what I have seen.

Morehouse, on the other hand, has a long-standing involvement in the city. He's the mayor. People know him and respect him. Our last mayor, Brian Brennan, didn't even run a campaign. No signs. No fundraising. No parties. No glossy brochures. And he easily won re-election.

Pay your dues, Gibson. Show us you have more than a few right-wing outsider views. Volunteer on a few committees and boards. But don't expect voters to come running to you because you have trust fund money to throw around.

Grassroots organization wins campaigns in this town. You have to earn the trust of the voters.

Venturan, so it sounds like you are validating what Chamber Member says about incumbents resting on their laurels. You say this is perfectly OK to do, as Brian Brennan did in the last election. That's pretty sad, actually. Just elect me because you did before, even though I've totally neglected and alienated the business community (the City's number one partner in economic development), as evidenced by Morehouse not getting the Chamber of Commerce's endorsement.

At lease Gibson is talking about relevant issues and the word is getting out fast in the community about this guy. He was all they were talking about at the Chamber mixer last month.

Yeah, maybe it will take an outsider to shake up things at City Hall and change the course over there on Poli. If that's what's needed, sign me up.

The Chamber that didn't endorse Gibson? The Chamber that someone on another thread said was "the kiss of death" to any candidate?

Has Gibson raised more than $20? Has the Republican central committee agreed to endorse him? Why should they raise money for him if he isn't out working? I didn't know he was so new to Ventura.

This idea that going to debates is campaigning is silly. Voters who haven't chosen their candidates are short in supply at a debate.

But if simply showing up and "speaking truth to power" was effective campaigning we would all being looking forward to Mike Gravel facing off against Hillary Clinton.

Gibson is done as the Chamber turned his back on him just as the Republican central committee has turned away. Next his only friend left will be Walmart.

The only ones at the Chamber that turned their backs on Gibson was the small group that makes up the Chamber PAC majority (maybe 5 votes, in all). Many of the other individual Chamber members that I know (and I've been a member now for 28 years) are ardent supporters of Mike. Is this a dysfunctional organization? Some would say "yes". I would be among them, by the way. Just because you belong to an organization doesn't mean you have to agree with them all the time.

On your other point about the Ventura County Republican Central Committee's endorsement, if you'd bothered to research the facts before popping your mouth off, you'd realize that they did, in fact, endorse Mike Gibson for Ventura (check their Web site, if you need confirmation).

From what I understand, Mike is largely self-funding his campaign, so he doesn't become beholden to the unions (the anti-Wal-Mart gang), the special interest groups (like Livable Ventura, VCCORD, and CAUSE) and all these other narrowly-focused interest groups that are lining up with their donations behind Morehouse, Fulton & Weir.

Not one of those special interest groups you mentioned have contributed to the campaigns of the three incumbents.

Since you're so well-connected to their campaigns, what about union support (and I don't just mean donations, endorsements too)?

You don't have to be well connected to the campaigns to see who donated to them. It's public record.

The only union support I know of is from the Police and Firefighters for both Weir and Fulton. That's also public record -- it's on big signs in town. They also endorsed Martin.

Getting endorsed by a central committee is completely different then getting support from them. I don't see any mailers and if I am not mistaken the Vote by mail program of a party would be functioning by this late date.

The central committee isn't throwing their money away on this race.

I also thought it odd that the chamber isn't democratic. Somehow all the leaders disagree with the other members. Why don't they vote for new leaders then?

Hey, Ventura County Republicans I dare you to throw money at Gibson. After you sink some money I want some quotes about his plans. I want a quote from Osbourn that he thinks he is the top pick for this seat and he agrees with his ideas.

But you won't see that quote because Osbourn is smart enough to know even if Gibson had the lead he would be likely to implode in the last few days by talking about his plans to bring in the biggest Walmart around and all sorts of real unpopular ideas.

Say what you want about Osbourn but he sees class and a contender in some candidates and not others. Gibson won a piece of paper from the central committee but not a big check like he needs to prove Republicans trust him and his abilities.

But besides all of that, GO GIBSON!

By all of you opponents of Mike Gibson spending so much time and effort on talking about him on this blog, you are all proving my point. He must have you feeling pretty nervous, or something, for you to spend so much time refuting this and arguing that. Otherwise, you'd just let this stuff pass without responding. Interesting, isn't it?

BTW, we'll see about the contributions from VCRCC to his campaign. The fat lady has definitely not sung yet - the election is still a month away. Why would they endorse him if they didn't plan on spending money on his campaign? (not that he needs their money from, what I gather)

Anyway, I'll look forward to your quick response to this, which has been your knee-jerk reaction in the past. Thanks for keeping me (and others) quite entertained while doing so.

No, he's not much of a threat. We all know that. The only reason we hang around here is to amuse ourselves by poking big holes in your arguments and watching the hot air seep out into cyberspace.

And Mongo, my man, I'm surprised you hang around here at all after getting the Dantona thread shut down for writing out-of-line things to females. Time to switch to a new moniker!

Hey, Fake Name, there you go again taking the bait like the chump you are.

Oh, and regarding getting the Dantona thread shut down, a proud moment indeed. Damn, I'm good at what I do!

You're proud of writing degrading things to females?

You take the bait well, too. Slimy things usually do.

No, I'm very proud of the result, which I knew it would get - shutting the Dantona thread down. Now, back to your groveling.

Mango, I think you should be banned. Getting a thread shut down is nothing to be proud of. It is very inconvenient for Brian Dennert and disruptive for the rest of the community. I don't know what you said but a misogynistic attitude isn't going to win the Republican party any votes.

Mongo was sad when the drive in closed. He could be seen there every friday, by himself. It's sad he has not had a relationship with a woman other than the home he shares with his mother. His sessions about his pent up hostility and his need for anger management have provided a complex case study into the world of delusion and the belief that one is smarter than his IQ would suggest. Please be kind to our mentally challenged poster. You will recognize Mongo from Blazing Saddles. The Flamo part comes from his desire to come out of the closet.

Mongo not sad. Mongo happy. Mongo doesn't live with his mommy though. Mongo lives with his harem in East Ventura.

You're so right about Blazing Saddles though. That was indeed me in my film debut. Thanks for allowing me to continue to entertain you all. No, no, no applause necessary.......

Since you are so proud of shutting down threads are you fine if your name is released?

By the way, Katie, lighten up, would you? We're all just having a little fun here. I know there's a serious side to politics, but sometimes, you have to have a little fun with the absurdity of it all, don't you agree?

Mongo: What you posted on the Dantona site was rude and demeaning. It had nothing to do with politics. Go get your sick kicks on a porno blog, buddy.

I will donate $100 to charity tonight if this Mango guy reveals his real name to all of us within 24 hours.

Otherwise we will know he is ashamed of his little boy antics.

I'm a little suspicious to say the least about the Dantona thread being shut down. I don't know what this Mongo guy said, but I seem to remember another character a few months back on a thread who got pretty scary with what he was writing. Brian yanked all of his comments (at least a dozen) and banned him from posting. Seemed to work fine.

This blog is a group of about 15 lib democratics who have way too much time on their hands and fill this blog up to the extreme with their rantings and bitching at a half dozen reps.

Now, a thread occurs where suddenly these democratics start nuking each other and looking pretty hypocritical and bad. Suddenly, the entire thread has to disappear because of some offensive posts?

So much for free speech you all claim to champion! Pretty bad Brian!

You can use google if you want to go back and view it. use google cache.

The free speech ended when Mongo started with asking women if they were hot. By that point it was pointless name calling and random posts. Some posts were unrelated and started spreading rumors about people's personal lives.

But the final straw was the "are you hot" comment.

Start your own blog if you want to rate local leaders according to such a standard.

Ventura Freedom, should I reveal who posted that? That would seem like free speech to me.

Let me start off by mentioning it was a local Republican.

I am under no obligation to not reveal someones name if they violate the rules after being warned.

Don't post personal information about people. Don't post junk about people's physical attributes. Don't stalk people or attempt to intimidate them. And don't get slimy with sexual comments.

I will erase this comment so you can get back to yelling about Walmart so make sure to save a copy if you want one.

Thanks for writing.

I don't disagree that those posts are for the most part nonsense. But I've seen alot of posts that solely rip on someone as some form of a loser - no content at all as to the topic of the moment. They don't cause an entire thread to shut down.

Not that it matters to you or makes a bit of difference, but my opinion of you and this blog goes down when I see an entire thread disappear because of a few of some goofball's nonsense comments. Especially when that thread exhibits democratics teeing off on one another, as you are also a dem.

You have taken out threatening, abusive, etc comments before, which I think is necessary in extreme cases. So it's not as though this is the first time anything like this has happened.

As far as revealing who Mongo is, that's up to you. I suppose there is somewhat of a journalistic rep that would be injured should you reveal it.

Mango is very reminicent of the other banned poster except he is a horse of a different color. But his posts add about as much to the community dialogue. Ventura Freedom, don't try putting Brian on the defensive regarding his decision by implying he is protecting dems.

At least the other poster had the guts to post under his real name (well at least some of the time).

If it makes all you Republicans feel better, I got called much, much worse by a Democrat on this blog. I am a Democratic woman. I emailed Brian and he deleted it. But it was at the end of a thread that was worthwhile all the way through up until this particular comment.

However, the Dantona thread had deteriorated into a pile of personal crap aimed at one person.

Some of the men on this blog think it's OK to try and intimidate women in this way. It's not. I commend Brian for trying to keep the conversation to politics and not personal lives.

I've seen quite a few weirdos on this blog, but Mongo has to be at the top of the list.

Mongo Flamo ran into Dantona yesterday at the beach. Dantona was passing out campaign literature with the Doggie. The following conversation ensued:
"Hey Dantona, you suck, man. You aint' gonna get elected", Mongo said.
"Excuse me, Sir, responded Dantona. I respect you free speech, but please get out of my face."
Mongo pulled back, cocked his fist and threw a right at the candidate. Dantona ducked, Mongo fell forward, right into a hard right cross to the head by the champ. Mongo was last seen being taken to County Hospital.
Mongo clearly has far more muscle posting anonymously that going head to head with anyone; especially Dantona.

Surf's up. Hope to catch a few with you one of these days, Mongo. Hope the jaw sets OK, my friend.

PUBLIC MONIES SPENT "CAMPAIGNING" FOR MEASURE C7 IN VIOLATION OF CALIFORNIA LAW

Subject: RE: New Public Records Request Pursuant to CA Law
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:10:30 -0700
From: "Plisky, Mabi" Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "c will"
Carroll Dean:

Here is the information requested:

1. Jano Graphics (letterhead)
$2,194.46

2. Clark's Printing (printing for addresses on envelopes)
$2,549.33

3. B&B Mailing Service (stuff, fold & mail letter)
$901.16

4. U.S. Postmaster (mailing cost)
$4,723.15

TOTAL: $10,368.10

Mabi

This Mongo seems familiar. Slimy. Says weird things to women. Talks about Ventura issues.

Only so many people it can be. Let's play elimination.

I've been reading this thread with great interest but haven't posted since you guys have been doing such a great job ripping each other apart. However, I do have one simple observation and question if anyone cares to answer.

Those who oppose Walmart complain about their treatment of their employees, in particular the claim that their pay and benefits are substandard. There are also complaints that Walmart sources many of their products from China. But I would imagine that Walmart provides pay and benefits that are comprable to their competitors such as Target and K-Mart, yet I don't see any attempts to drive those stores out of our communities. And I would imagine that Target and K-Mart, as well as countless other retailers, source a lot of their products from China as well.

So my question is why are we singling out Walmart? It seems to me that there wasn't too much complaint about Walmart until they decided to get into the grocery busineess, which has traditionally been a heavily unionized industry. Is that why it is OK for us to have a Target or K-Mart, because they don't compete with grocery stores? The large Walmart Supercenters are different from regular Walmart stores because they sell groceries, and all these various local ordinances seem to be aimed sqarely at the Supercenters.

Bubba, you hit the nail on the head. It is all about the grocery business and the union.

Surf's up Bubb, hope to catch one with you this evening.

Bubba and Moondoggie you are both dead wrong. The "other" stores don't use predatory practices, pay 20% higher wages and don't use excessive part-time employees to avoid full-time benefits.

An interesting development for WalMart. CEO Lee Scott held a convention last week and intends to hold suppliers accountable for their carbon footprint. WalMart's clout over suppliers will do more than the EPA has done in thirty years.

Most of the anger at WalMart comes from the Micahel Moore style propaganda videos and books. See, even WalMart critics have created an economic niche of selling books and videos on WalMart for profit.

I don't see Target stepping up on carbon footprints, yet they currently are operating unimpeded in Ventura.

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Are you kidding? WallMart is able to sell cheap gods by forcing foreign companies to low ball manufacturing, exploit labor, and send it here to exploit labor and low ball local retail.

Carbon footprint? What's the carbon footprint of shipping cheap goods from Asia to the US and across the country?

Ah shucks, but it is America. Walmart has over 1,000,000 employees. Are they slaves or do they like their job? How about the law firm that only pays $65,000 instead of $150,000? Would you shut it down? Get with it, Not Bubba, it is about the retail clerk union and all the rest is smoke and mirrors.