You're absolutely correct. The term "illegal immigrant" is an oxymoron. Illegal means unlawful and immigrant means a person who lawfully comes to a country to take up permanent residence.

The proper term used by the gov is illegal alien. I also agree that break many laws. Illegal entry. Identity theft/fraud. Driving w/o license, registration, insurance, proper tags, stickers. Day labors don't pay income taxes. Etc.

Race based organizationsand illegal alien advocates will do anything they can to blur and confuse the issue and the fact that can no longer
be denied ...... That MEXICO is doing everything it can to create
an Illegal Mexican Nation within the borders of the USA,using
illegal aliens as footsoldiers , mexican consulates as beachheads
and Outlaw/Sanctuary cities as its capital cities!

numbersusa
saveourstate
capsweb
alipac
ccir

They are CRIMINAL TRESPASSERS!

If Mexico would take some responsibility and fix its corrupt, socialist government, instead of encouraging its citizens to head to the U.S. for jobs, this would make a big difference.

Mr. Frank,

Real (legal) immigrants agree with you, illegal aliens are not immigrants, they are foreign intruders. Also know that illegal immigration discriminates based on origin, it benefits 30 Latin Americans for every non-Latin American beneficiary.

Read more at www.immigrantrightsfoundation.org

Jean Baptiste Truong
Executive Director
Immigrant Rights Foundation

Stephen, it's with the dictionary you have problems. An "immigrant" is someone who permanently settles in another country. Its definition says nothing about being given permission. They are immigrants who crossed the border illegally. They are illegal immigrants.

Aliens is less precise than "immigrants". An alien can be from outer space, while an immigrant is simply from another country. The word "alien" can also just mean strange or different. To the same degree that they're different or strange to us, we're different or strange to them, which I don't believe is very much any way.

When it was easy to cross the border, their intention was to stay temporarily, not permanently. They would come to work, go back with family, come back to work, etc. So "migrant" was more accurate. Now that it's very difficult to cross, they're coming to stay, bringing their families with them as they're able to. Greater enforcement and the fence was a very bad idea (and a big waste of money).

My legal resident Brazilian friend says that the term "illegal alien" is CORRECT for it defines EXACTLY WHO these folks ARE--FOREIGN criminal trespassers!

And whatever your legal resident Brazilian friend says is the truth.

Alright Franks...here's your "guy"...

No, I won't outright defend undocumented immigrants. I don't deny that they are not legally here, and I don't think that I ever have.

That law's were/are broken is plain and clear.

The reality is that folks who indulge in unreasoning intolerance mostly just fire up the other side to be just as unreasonable.

Why I won't use the usual jingoistic words "illegal alien" or "illegal immigrant" in discussion on these boards is because they have become tantamount to hate speech. You may as well use the N-word to refer to African-Americans in my opinion. These terms are used, mainly by the right, and folks like you, to whip up public outrage to seek votes, publicity, political agendas and the like.

At the same time, many outraged by this issue provide almost no serious solutions to the issues at hand. Their remarks are self-serving and not serving the public's need. It just adds to the dysfunction that serves no one.

The reality is, whether we like it or not, the undocumented worker is a economic part of our lives and not just as a drain on society, a somewhat debatable topic, but also certainly to an extent as a positive adjunct to our economy, at least from the point of view of employers that want cheap labor and consumers that want cheap services. It is what it is.

Law abiding immigrants are obviously not the problem. I'm not sure the debate is about this, though recent policies have had adverse impact on legal foriegn employment especially in the high-tech area.

My grandparents were all such, and I have co-workers and friends who are, some from Mexico and elsewhere.

The problem of the undocumented worker won't be fixed by taking it out on children, it won't be fixed by denying essential health care.

It might be fixed by effective border control, by working to move Central American economies and political systems to a better domestic environment. It might be fixed by including some sort of regulated guest worker program. It might be helped by distinguishing between a no-good street thug, and someone brought here as a child who grows up American in almost every way and that has the promise to be a productive citizen.

To put it simplistically...where one extreme would have us make 12 million people suddenly legal, and another would have us bus the 12 million south....well, neither will work.

Both sides need to indulge in a give/take debate to move to a postion that fixes the issue mostly.....and we'll all be better off with that.

I hate to disappoint you, but this is OUR country. WE are the owners of this land, and as such, we are not obligated to indulge in a give/take debate. We've indulged them in give/take long enough. We give, they take. Enough!

Attrition by enforcement does work and we all know it. We've known it would work for a long time and we're seeing them run every place the laws are enforced. I say we let this enforcement spread from state to state until there's nowhere left for them to run except to the countries THEY created.

What makes you think WE are responsible for getting their countries to improve? We've thrown good money after bad at them for years, and they haven't changed. I'm sick of watching Americans suffer while we continue to funnel money to these losers. Why don't you let ME choose where I want my tax dollars to go and those of you who love these invaders so much can drive by their garages where they live on Friday nights and sling YOUR paychecks in the front door for them. If your heart is so big, let YOUR wallet do the talking.

Why should we provide ILLEGAL ALIENS with medical services when so many American citizens don't hve any??

These people could have fixed their own nations. Many of them, instead, chose to be a part of the creation of what exists in their nations. I don't feel one bit sorry for them; and THAT'S from a lifelong LIBERAL. I'll save my sympathy and compassion for the 71,000 AMERICANS who have been killed on our own soil by these invaders. I'll save my compassion for THEIR families. I'll save my compassion for American citizens who were put out of work by these illegal alien invaders. I'll save my sympathy for the parents of the American children who were raped, sodomized and murdered by these "people". I'll save my sympathy for the Americans whose childrens' educations are "dumbed down" while AMERICAN schools teach these illegal aliens' children to speak English. I'll save my sympathy for the American who dies while they wait in the emgergency room behind an ILLEGAL ALIEN who is there for a tummy ache.

If the children of ILLEGAL ALIENS want someone to blame, they need only look as far as their lawbreaking parents.

Get 'em outta here!!

Now....go ahead and shout "hate speech". We have FREE speech in this nation, and you can take your "politically correct" and shove it where the sun don't shine. I call it righteous anger!!!

That should have read, 71,000 Americans killed on our own soil by them since 9/11. More than have been killed in the ENTIRE Iraq War!! Yep! I'd say this is an invasion.

Tom Johnson, how's about I come over and squat in your house tonight? How's about I take all your extra money and then some? How's about I then DEMAND that you negotiate with me and let's decide what part of YOUR HOUSE I get to keep because I was successful at breaking in. What about it, Tom? Do I get the master bedroom and living room? You can have the family room and the garage. BTW, I'm bringing my 8 children with me and boy are they going to need PLENTY!! I hope your wallet is bottomless! You're going to be paying for it!

Ahh, quit dancing and speak the truth, Tom. These people are here "illegally" (comprende?). If they broke into our country, which they did, they have violated the law. Therefore, they are not entitled to squat!

I agree that it would be extremely difficult to deal with the 12 million (probably more) that are here already, but the least we can do is defend our border against any more of these freeloading "illegal aliens" (accurate term) from coming over here and sucking up our jobs and tax paid resources.

Mary...you make my point. I just call it anger. You solve nothing, you help nothing.

You seem unsure who died for what. Maybe you are too angry to think straight 'eh? It happens.

You should keep compassion for American workers put out of jobs by "lower prices all the time" sort of sales jingles, and the wholesale shipment of core American jobs like steel, autos, electronics, textiles etc overseas. You're angst is overwrought, and you continue the simplification of the "give/take" debate. If such simplicities work for you, fair enough, but again, you won't and more importantly AREN'T accomplshing anything by that sort of rhetoric.

It's just a lt of angry air.

I did not say we are responsible for getting their countries to improve, but the clear pattern of foreign assistance through both Democratic and Republican administrations show that we do, nationally, show interest in other nations, and seek to move them to their, and our benefit. Improved economies abroad benefit both us and them.

You're tone is angry and belligerent and THAT is part of my point. You exemplify it well Mary.

ok...I do love how folks are able to create cutsie names here and on other boards, while concealing who they are...

That brings me to Mr/Ms "Tom's Dancing" (how cute is that!)

I don't pretend to speak the "truth" bub, just my opinion. I'll leave it to other super-egos to pretend they know it all around here.

I think I basically said that the undocumented did break laws, that they are not here legally.

I never said they were entitled to "squat". I did say that, I think, for better or worse, they are a part of our economy. That has to be considered. Even Bush knows that, and he's no genius.

I'm all for defending the border, though I surely don't want an American "Berlin Wall" either.

At the risk of sounding the proverbial "politically correct" that some above shriek about, I think this "wall" should be done efficiently and humanely, that's all.

I'd agree, after stemming the flow we then need to deal with those that are here.

Again, I merely suggest that some rationality be used. Some need to go. Some should stay. Some need to get back in line, and the back of the line at that.

Again, wierd, shrieking, outlandish behavior is not going to fix anything. It hasn't so far.

I've heard that one definition of "stupidity" is to repeat the past, expecting a different outcome.

I'd say current policy is stupid, and so are the more manic rants we see here on these boards and elsewhere.

Tom, I agree that insults and rants accomplish little. However, they contain nuggets of truth. People are increasingly frustrated and angry, and rightly so. Day after day, they see their quality of life slipping away, and their hands are tied to do anything (legally) about it. The government is too lazy, inept, or corrupt to enforce its own laws which are supposed to protect law-abiding citizen-taxpayers. People have had enough of this crazy-making double bind. Their government has failed them in a most disastrous way.

First, the word immigrant, as defined by most dictionaries, means a person who enters a country to take up residence. The definition has nothing to do with legalities. The topic of immigration is of major concern because of the limitations in legal migration and the large number of people doing it ilegaly.

When the candidates talk about the issue of immigration, that issue includes both the realities of illegal immigration and solutions that include guest worker programs and increases in legal migration.

Sure its nice to blame the newspaper when have an ongoing discontent over the problems caused by illegal immigration. But to suggest that they are misleading the public shows a lack of truthfulness on Mr. Frank's part.

And if you think that I'm writing this as a supporter of illegal immigration, you are mistaken. I just prefer an honest debate over a misleading diatribe. Immigration is a huge issue and it needs to be dealt with outside the realm of rhetoric or we will never be able to address it in a meaningful way.

3 million LEGAL immigrants are allowed into the USA each year. Legal immigration should not be a walk in the park. Real immigrants should benefits the USA.
Illegal aliens have had a negative affect on our Country because the Politicians have created jobs to accommodate them. Take away the illegal aliens and you have a school system that actually works for American children. Take away the illegal aliens and we would have lower Medical and Automobile insurance rates. Take away illegal aliens and we would have the rule of law for everyone. For those who claim there is no plan to solve the problem go to www.americanlegion.com

Veterans know first hand what it takes to keep this a Sovereign Country. Here's the solution.
Step 1: Secure the borders and other ports of entry.
Step 2: Eliminate the jobs magnet and social services benefits for illegals.
Step 3: No Amnesty! (Amnesty encourages more illegal immigration)
Step 4: Reduce the number of illegal aliens in the US by attrition.
Step 5: Effectively screen and track all foreign visitors.

For those who claim that there is no plan to address illegal immigration they have not been paying attention to the AMERICAN people. We the people have been telling the politicians (since 1994) that we do not want open borders. We the people have demanded that the politicians secure the border. Because of the politician’s actions, I can assume that they are more concerned about Foreign Countries nationals than they are about Americans. Their lack of action on behalf of America and Americans speaks very loudly.

Stop with the “oh poor me, I work so hard,� comments. Or “Who’s going to pick your strawberries?� I will pick my own strawberries, mow my own lawn and clean my own house. We don’t need SLAVE labor in America. It is the American people who have made America great. America is made of real immigrants, whose allegiance is to America. It was not made great by ILLEGAL ALIENS. So quit with your act of superiority.

Semantics!!! Although I like the term “Criminal Migration� In this country we have a Constitution which states “Congress will establish uniform rule nationalization� AKA immigration law. While Webster defines it one way our Constitution and subsequent laws have defined the term another way and in this regard the word “immigrant� refers to people who have entered the process of US immigration those that do not are not immigrants according to the our law. And I don’t think Webster would use the word “immigrant� to someone who has broken in to his house or yard.

Hello again, Tom Johnson. You're darned right I'm angry. So would you be if you really cared about this nation and it's citizens. It's painfully obvious you don't.

And as it relates to the cheap stores with their cheesy goods from mexico and china, I don't shop and the "cheap" store. I quit shopping there long ago, if you're referring to walmart. In terms of the American manufacturing jobs lost, I live in the "rust belt" and we've been hit hard by those jobs being "outsourced" for years, so you can't teach me one damn thing about it. What good, though, is bringing those jobs back home going to do if illegal aliens underbid AMERICANS for them like they do now? What good will it do if we are forced to work for slave wages just to have that job? In area after area where they've busted factories who hire illegal aliens over Americans, we've seen Americans line up for those jobs. We've also seen those employers immediately raise the hourly wage.

I'm old enough to remember when those jobs were here in America and were done by Americans, with those goods being purchased by Americans, and I can tell you first hand, this nation and it's citizens were a lot better off then, so don't try to tell someone who has lived it, and therefore has the experience, how it is or was, ok? lol Sure sign of stupidity, Tommy Boy, when you try to tell someone who lives in it how it is.

And, when you want to 'bargain' with the invaders, YOU help nothing, YOU solve nothing...except for the illegal alien invaders. I bet they love you. No loyal, patriotic American does though.

A few responses:

Wendy: Yes I agree there are "nuggets of truth" and they are revealing of genuine and legit concerns. This problem starts at the Federal level, and effective solutions will start there also. Once that happens, I think many of the other issues will wither.

E Man: I suspect we are fairly close on the issues.

Paula: Hmm...I'm not sure I'd agree that making LEGAL immigration harder serves much purpose...and it seems not to be the issue at hand. Now as far as "Politicians have created jobs to accommodate them" as somehow drawing these non-legal migrants here...I thought it was a basic tenet of conservative thought that only the private sector and investment truly create jobs. I'm not sure the Feds create sweatshops or induce meat-packing plants to hire 16year old Guatamlens...

Mr Pie Hole: Yes, it is a lot of semantics, you are absolutely right. But some of these words are used to inflame and incite, and thus take discussion out of reasonable bounds at least some of the time. That is why I avoid them. Check out Mary's post to see what I mean.

Oh,and Mary: You're not just angry, you could not make a better case for hysteria. Or maybe just hysterical.

Your rants: "So would you be if you really cared about this nation and it's citizens. It's painfully obvious you don't." and "Sure sign of stupidity, Tommy Boy", and of course the showstopper " I bet they love you. No loyal, patriotic American does though."

Hmm.....assumption of facts not in evidence, derogatory remarks, and hateful invective.

I'd say you are in the "Zone" Mary.

You make my point very, very, even painfully clear about what sort of discussion is not helpful.

Wow, Tom, it seems you're the lone wolf when it comes to defending the lawbreakers. That's why this issue of "comprehensive immigration reform" (read: amnesty) is so dead in the water. There are a few feeble voices, like yours, still pleading for it, but the politicians have seen the light on this issue (finally). Even George W. Bush (who I'm no big fan of, by the way) has finally come around on this. The raids he has ordered ICE to undertake into factories and other businesses are long overdue and are a true sign of what the future holds for the lawbreakers. Send them back!!!

Tom, we have no reason to believe that effective solutions will come from the Federal level. If DC truly thought illegal immigration was a problem, they would have already done something about it. Their "solutions" so far have been feeble and archaic, and amount to nothing more than bone throwing. For example: a wall! What a fine knuckle-dragger idea. It appeases the short-sighted for awhile.

Fact: Money interests use illegal aliens as a "legit" slave class. American leaders care very little about the negative impacts on American workers. Real solutions must be regional and grassroots.

Wendy, illegal immigrants are no slave class. They certainly are better off here near the minimum wage, but usually above it, than where they came from. Americans are decent people and most who hire illegal immigrants treat them fairly. But you disagree with that, that Americans are decent people.

Arturo, I agree that illegal aliens from Mexico are better off financially here than in their home country. And of course, the vast majority of Americans are "decent people".

Migrating to America legally is, and should be, a long, drawn-out procedure
meant to protect the interests of American citizens. It involves more than
simply jumping a fence and heading north in pursuit of free health care,
education, food stamps, and other handouts paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

Legal immigration means enduring rigorous hurdles like background checks to
detect a criminal background or possible ties to terrorists; medical
examinations to detect diseases still prevalent in third-world nations, but
long since eradicated here; proof of financial solvency so as to prevent
newcomers from becoming a burden on U.S. taxpayers, and testing for
knowledge of American history and English skills.

Those who have jumped a fence into America in order to avoid our
immigration checks are not immigrants. Rather, they are invading criminals,
with no claim whatsoever to the welcome mat extended to legal immigrants.

Such people do not deserve recognition or sanction by the United States,
and should be rounded up and deported as soon as possible, without
exception.

Another word game played by pro-illegal aliens is to call these miscreants
"undocumented." The implication of this term is that the invaders are
simply missing a piece of paper or two, probably some unnecessary
bureaucratic red tape designed to keep brown people out.

In truth, illegal aliens have invaded our nation, leaving America
vulnerable to undetected crime, terrorism, disease, and financial
devastation at the hands of people with no legal or moral justification for
being here.

A good article. We as a society have been conditioned to avoid conflict and be ultra-politically correct.

We are going to politically correct ourselves right into 3rd world cutural status if we continue to pander to those that invade our country illegally.

Illegal Aliens or Illegal Immigrants...doesn't matter...they are here ILLEGALLY and until our corrupt government does something to STOP this flow of illegals, this country is headed for 3rd world status. our hospitals are crowded and closing down, our schools are packed and our American students are suffering when we have to have bilingual education to teach the ones who refuse to learn the English (of course our government is allowing this to happen also). People are losing their jobs or can't get one in OUR own country because they don't speak Spanish!! We are losing and these groups like LULAC who are doing everything they can to give these illegals rights on the backs of the American citizens. If a state or city tries to get control of the illegal problem, LULAC and some of the others are right there to sue and take them to court. They should put all that effort into making the illegals do things the right way and learn our language. I'm sick of the illegals coming here demanding rights they do NOT have in this country. they need to come here legally if they want to be here to live and work AND learn OUR language, English. They need to pay what we have to pay to live here. Millions and Millions of dollars they earn under the table is sent to Mexico...it does NOT help OUR economy...they are draining this country and our government is allowing it to happen while Mexico has it's head up their rear ends telling us what to do. We need a government with a backbone

It seems like California is already well on its way to becoming a third world State. One only has to go as far as Oxnard, where you can hardly find a small business or fast food restaurant where the workers' first reaction is to speak Spanish to their customers. What's wrong with that picture?

Illegal aliens love to bitch and moan about how they are discriminated against and forced to reject their native customs and language, but whenever I go to Mexico, or any other foreign country for that matter, do I expect the businesses, hotels, and restaurants to conform to my English-speaking orientation. Why, of course not!

A lot of these problems, unfortunately, are of our own making due to such ludicrous, wasteful, and expensive programs like bi-lingual education and Spanish-language election ballots. I thought you had to be a citizen to vote. Isn't part of becoming a citizen learning to speak our country's native language (English)? Makes absolutely no sense!

Third World...

Last time I looked, California was the sixth biggest economy in the world. I don't think that's changed.

The size of one's economy does not necessarily equal a happy and prosperous society. Look at China and Russia as living proof of this.

groan...more again!

Wow, Tom, Seems You're Outnumbered : WOW! What cute name! Whatever happened for folks willing to stand for their beliefs?

Well duh I'm outnumbered, at least on this blog!

What...you'd rather hear the sound of one hand clapping?

Feeble this...you aren't getting traction on the issue either are you? Immigration reform, whatever form it may take, is "dead in the water" because of partisan politics, not because there aren't feasible solutions out there. Those solutions might not always please me, or you completely..whoever you are...but we might get closer to fixing things.

Wendy: I have to agree that the undocumented worker often resembles a "slave class", or maybe more properly a serf or indentured servant. I agree, solutions at the Federal level are not forthcoming (whatever the reason) but in that securing the border is a Federal (and solely Federal) task, then that is where it MUST come from. Without border security everything else is a band-aid solution at best.

Law and Order: Hmm...I'd go for a legal immigration process that is thorough and complete process. I don't know that it has to be a "a long, drawn-out procedure". That sound like you wish to push red tape for it's own sake, not for efficiency or accuracy. Sound like a beaurocrat's solution to me.

The people who defend these criminals are either:

1. involved with or married to one

2. have a business where they employ them for $20 a day, or

3.haven't had them close enough to affect their daily lives

there is no excuse for them to be here...run them all out at gunpoint...period!

Tom's use of the word "angst" tells me all that I need to know about him !!

Only in the last ten yers or so have people had to press 1 for english and 2 for deportation,save America press 2 now!!There is good and bad in every race and we are all God's children.Lighten up,100 yr.s from now is it going to matter?For God and Country.

Jeff, thank, you make the point well for me.

In the last ten years we have gone forn a unified nation to a balkanized nation.

We are all one people in the United States--and Americans speak, read and write English.

I live in South Carolina and no matter where I am in public at just about any given time, I see what I think are illegal aliens from Mexico walking somewhere, shopping with their ill behaved spanish speaking children (who were probably born here) always at the courtesy counter sending their money orders "back home". I am appalled at the amount of money this is costing in crime, loss of jobs, tax money and the funneling of money into another country that is generated here. They are very bold and not one bit afraid (it appears) of detection. First and formost we need to stop rewarding them by refusing citizenship to the children of illegal people. Why this hasn't been done YET is a major mystery to me. Second, anyone caught hiring these people should lose their business license and go to prison for a minimum of 10 years. The risk of hiring illegals should exceed the supposed benefit. How is it that we do not have secure borders yet?? This should be a huge priority. Lastly, I think it should be mandated that they have so many months to vacate this country or deal with being treated like the criminals that they are when they are caught. I am so tired of the news stories of raids that are full of sympathy for these "poor" people. Yes, they are poor, but as Americans, we MUST realize that we are on a boat that has taken on far too much water and taking in the people who are drowning is only going to capsize the whole boat. Their own country is what needs the reform, so that they can live and work and raise their families in THEIR OWN COUNTRY!!!!! How can anyone argue with this?? (with exception to the people who are personally involved with helping them) Let the Americans who disagree with what I'm saying go and live in Mexico and help the people turn there own economy around (although that would be like asking for a bullet) It's sad that both McCain and Obama do not have a clear plan for dealing with this situation. I think that they're both soft on their approach. Give them licenses to drive??? If you know who they are when they apply for a license and still don't deport them, what is the point???? Let them drive to their illegal job now? It's just more rewards and a slap in the face to everyone who is a legal citizen.