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March 30, 2005
High School & College Standards
Disconnected…
There seems to be a disconnection in our schools regarding what it takes to succeed and graduate from public high schools, and what colleges demand for incoming freshman.
According to recent published reports, including an article in the Star, of the 288 first-time freshmen who enrolled at the Camarillo campus (CSUCI) in the fall, only 52.4 percent were able to meet the math requirements. The number was marginally better when it came to English, with 54.5 percent of entering freshmen found to be accomplished enough in reading and writing for college level courses.
This disconnection must be solved. It's expensive. It cheapens the high school diploma, and it hurts the local economy.
Expensive: If the universities have to hire teachers and provide classrooms to bring incoming freshman up to speed on math and English, those are funds that can't be spent on college level studies, support services or other programs. Look at what's happening at the community college budgets for examples.
Cheapens the diploma: What is the high school diploma worth when 50% of students can't read or do math at graduation? For decades, the high school diploma meant automatic employment in the workforce, or advancement to college. Now, 50% of graduates may not know how to read a job application.
Hurts the economy: Local employers need skilled, smart, critical thinkers to employ. If they can't get them, they will find them in Ventura County, or elsewhere.
So, what's happening? Are high school standards too low? Are college standards to rigid and excessive? How did we get here, and how do we fix it? Is it a budget problem? Or, is there a disconnection between the high school graduation standards and college entry standards?
Shouldn't these two sets of standards match?
Welcome to my Blog. What say you?
Comments
Thank you both Francisco & Keith for your comments. It's an honor to be able to have this platform to bring out new ideas and solutions.
Francisco - One constituency missing from your list of stakeholders is parents. While it's true that many parents use the schools as baby sitters, the Lion's share of parents are concerned, intelligent and thoughtful partners in their kid's education.
I would like to see school site councils expanded or neighborhood councils for schools so that more parents, neighbors and local business owners could participate in providing solutions.
Tim
Posted by: Tim Keaney at April 1, 2005 10:44 AMI think to address this issue we need to look at the policy of grade level advancement.
Earlier this week, the Star ran an article on the Jr. High Schools reviewing their policies of graduating students who had failed to attend classes and did not complete any classwork, but were allowed to graduate because they were able to pass the states competency test.
Students and parents have been taking advantage of a system that does not seem to be watching out for the students best interests.
There are many other issues here, but this one should be fairly simple to fix. If you don't attend class, you dont pass.
Tim K. - You're right... I did leave out parents. In many ways, they have a greater responsibility than anyone involved.
Tim G. - I agree... allowing students to advance to HS without passing the required courses is ABSURD! I would propose a program that demands more than what the teachers are asking for. They are be happy with students passing 18 of 24 (keep in mind that passing is "D" or better) classes. Why don't we demand they pass all 24 classes and get a "C" or better in 18 of the 24. Perhaps then we will be advancing better prepared young minds.
Posted by: Francisco at April 1, 2005 12:56 PMReforming school retention policy is highly important because what is most alarming is the ten year decline in high school students taking University of California and Cal State preparatory classes in high school. As Tim K stated, freshman students are spending a great deal of money early on to catch up with other college freshman in remedial education. Why is it taking students in college 5+ years to graduate these days?
Maybe, we need to look at the role that money and priorities play in our public school system as well. Science and math education are in deep decline in public schools as a whole. We have a great amount of high school students spending hours in the gym or hours playing rock music to become rich and famous. Others spend hours just hanging out and wasting time without goals, but where are the students who are motivated to learn science and math? What are the rewards that communities are willing to give for such knowledge?
If McDonalds is willing to pay teenagers to flip burgers, do you think our school system or community would be willing to pay students for top performance in tough subjects? I am not talking scholarships, I am talking cash to students for the top performance in tough subjects.
We give cash to low income families, farmworkers, loans to 1st time homebuyers, and criminals seeking their GED. Do you think it might be possible to pay top performing kids if we are willing to for a criminal's education?
Maybe, performance pay is not popular with teachers, but I think if you told the student body that the top students would be paid, you might see an increase in student performance.
Too Radical? Maybe. But, so is another graduating class in two months who can't perform in basic algebra, which as I understand, has been waived in school districts as a graduating requirement because it was too "difficult".
Thoughts???
Tim,
Welcome to the blogging world!
I think it is going too far to say 50 percent of high school grads can't read a job application.
The problem is not reading at all, but at what level. I teach high school and some of my seniors can do it ( I teach government, economics, journalism) but some need basic help before college. They can pass English with a C or D, but can't do college level work.
As I see it there are a couple of options:
1. Raise the passing grade to at least a C.
2. Require yet another test.
3. Or have students that need basic help go to community college first.
The drawback to option number three, is that the cc district just had to cut back again.
Any thoughts on that cutback on what you would of cut instead, or how to fund them ( community colleges) better?
Brian Dennert
ps. check out my blog sometime. same address but /dennert vs. /keaney
Brian:
I am not really sure what you are getting at to be honest. I've worked as an adult literacy tutor and what I have seen is just sad. Sure they could do "some reading", but I wouldn't say they were proficient readers. Is this acceptable?
It sounds like you are implying that some students do not perform well in reading and that is alright, so long as they can do "some" reading and writing. As a teacher is it acceptable for students to be just "good enough" to get by? Being that you teach seniors, I must ask, do you think if "social promotion" ended in middle school, students would be better prepared for your classroom by the time they got to their senior year?
On the budget, since you are a teacher, I am wondering if you had no budgetary constraints at all and had all the money possible, what would you increase in schools? I am just not sure what "better funding" means?
Would you raise taxes to "better fund" schools?
Scott
Posted by: Scott Blough at April 1, 2005 04:49 PMBrian,
Fair enough, but I don't think increased funding solves the problem. I will indeed say that I think there are a lot of bizarre spending priorities.
Why do we have a Secretary of Education, and a Superintendant of Public Instruction for the State? With their own staffs, web sites, agendas, budgets etc... Strange.
I think your #1 & #3 suggestions are spot on though. I think C means that a student has a decent enough mastery of the subject to move on. I also think that #3 is one of the Key reasons for the Community Colleges in the first place. You have to wonder what these kids are doing at UC or CS in the first place?
Mr. Gray makes a key point in this whole discussion though. No class = No pass. That should be common sense, but apparently it's not. If a kid doesn't go to school, then they are missing the key discussions, debates and additional education required to get the critical thinking skills they'll need as an adult. If they're lucky enough to still pass the test, that doesn't necessarily mean they've learned enough.
When my wife and I were in High School, we took much of the last semester off in our senior years because we didn't need any more classes. I don't know if this still happens (Brian?) but I can't imagine that's preparing anyone for College, trades or work.
No class = No pass. Way to go Mr. Gray.
Posted by: Tim Keaney at April 2, 2005 03:00 PMHey y'all,
I didn't mean that barely reading is acceptable, but that just becasue 50 percent aren't reading at a college level doesn't mean they are barely reading.
I don't know when "college level" got dumbed down, but to me reading at a college level should mean something.
And as far as funding? I didn't mean for my classroom, I meant for community colleges. In the past classes have been offered for non-native speakers and basic math classes. I know some continue and some are cut. The classes being cut are what bothers me.
One year I had a student move from all the way across the Pacific. At first she was failing all her classes, and I couldn't even communicate where tutoring was after school. But by the end of the year she was on the honor roll. Her English skills still aren't the best. She might use the wrong tense or miss the meaning in a poem. But, her math and science skills are amazing.
She would most likely fail a basic college level reading and writing test. But I think she belongs in college. That is one purpose that community colleges should have is to bring her skills up in English. But to say she can barely read a job application would be false. So would saying she shouldn't graduate. She should. But she should have some extra help maybe in a community college. Failing her would be pretty silly being that she is acing most of her classes. Passing her along with no plan would be bad too.
Now, the fact we have two offices of ed ( Riordan and O'Connell ) does seem silly. I think Arnold should eliminate the executive branch office and leave it as an elected statewide office. But that would mean he would kick his old friend out. What comes first? Reform or friendship?
Lastly, I understand the frustration of social promotion, but as a taxpayer I wonder. If a student can pass a algebra test with 90 percent without taking the class, why do we force the kid to sit there. Isn't that a waste of everyone's time? I think we should start a credit system for middle school just like we do for high school. Then if a student passes a test, they might be able to fit another elective into their schedules, but either way they would be earning credits.
Respectfuuly submitted,
Brian Dennert
PS- Tim, I like the O'Reilly "What say you" ending to your posts.
Posted by: Brian Dennert at April 2, 2005 05:17 PM


Congratulations on getting the blog up and running.... I hope it garners attention and inspires more people like you to challenge our local school districts to raise the bar on education. It's time to stop making excuses, and start demanding more. More from students, more from teachers, and more from the administrators and union leaders (sometimes one in the same!).
Posted by: Francisco at March 31, 2005 02:41 PM