Actually, 74, 75 and 76 will affect education. 74 will make it harder to attract the best and brightest new teachers in Simi Valley. Prop 75 will make it harder for Simi Valley teachers to fight for better funding for Simi Valley students. Prop 76 could lead to 12 million dollars being cut from Simi Schools. VOTE NO ON 74, 75 and 76.

Arleigh is right! Passage of Prop 74 will affect education. It will allow districts a longer period to evaluate the abilities of any given teacher. It will assure that only higher quality teachers achieve tenure. Because the problem now exists that after only two years, a teacher has a job for life – no matter their competence. Every parent has had to endure at least one teacher who fails to provide an acceptable learning experience. But too bad! Under current laws, the teacher is there to stay.

What’s wrong with going through 5 years of evaluation, if the prize at the end of the rainbow is lifetime employment? I am an “at will” employee. That means if I screw up, I’m out. No protracted termination procedures. And I’m OK with that. It must be great to be a 24 year old teacher who only has to maintain minimum standards and does not have to worry about being let go.

There are underperforming teachers out there and they should be removed. No question. Teacher unions need to get behind pay for performance and getting rid of underperformers.

Jerre

I will include a recap of 76 as well. This is the time and place for debate and solutions, not talking points and commercials. Any one who wants to bring up how these props will help or hurt education is free to do so.

Tim

Here are some open questions to our audience:

How would you reward a teacher who works overtime every day?

Are all teachers the same, deserving the same pay and benefits?

If teacher a purchases thousands of dollars in supplies every year, works overtime, and is a creative lesson planner, should they be rewarded over those that aren't?

What kinds of programs and academic programs and freedoms are needed to pull California's schools ahead?

What "reforms" in the educational system would you like to see on the ballot?

Tim

If a large % of teachers statewide leave the profession at or before 5 years, could 2 year tenure be looked at as more of a stop gap (or in military terms) a "stop loss" program?

If the profession (for many reasons) drives away many in the first 5 years, what can we do other than "tenure" to enhance and improve their experiences?

Tim

Tim:

One of the things I've noticed is every year seems to be the year of reform in education. It usually is coming from non-teachers, business types. The business community obviously cares deeply about the future of education, but I think a deeper understanding of what's going on in the schools needs to be undertaken before solutions are proposed.

We don't even really know the needs other than what the newspaper tells us.

It makes me wonder what teachers really think though. I know if my job was constantly being called into question by public officials each night coming up to an election, I'd start gettting a little ticked off.

I've heard it uttered from teachers, "Who is reforming us this year?" I think this illustrates a general disdain that teachers, who are both actively supporting the union and are non-active members, feel. They are probably totally sick of being the source of blame and political posturing going on during campaign season. I know I would be...

They see tons of problems in their classrooms, then have to come home at night and watch their profession dragged through the mud by a bunch of people who have never done their job and want to use education as an agenda piece to make themselves look like they are doing something about it.

I think the main issue for me is looking at the way school funds are managed. I think there are cost savings everywhere and that could be leveraged to give teachers the tools they need to do the job better.

Let's start fixing the systemic problems in the educational bureaucracy that is effecting how many dollars are getting in the classroom before we start telling teachers they aren't cutting it. That would be the start of a revolution...

I also think schools have taken on too many parental responsibilities in the curriculum. I believe they should push those responsibilities back to parents and not allow them to say, "the school will take care of it." By schools going into parenting, they've basically emboldened thousands of parents out there to basically say, I can be AWOL in educating my child what is right and wrong.

The more schools seem to creep toward curricular parenting, instead of focusing on academic subjects, the worse the test results. Plain and simple, let the parents parent and let the educators educate.

But, I digress... We haven't really asked what the silent majority of teachers want. We haven't really figured out where the shortcomings are. We haven't even done a needs assesment on where the shortcomings are.

Seriously, has anyone said, there are this many poor performing teachers throughout california and this is why we need to change this reform.

Where's the numbers?

Basically, we are operating on preconcieved assumptions about the teaching profession to justify what needs to be done.

I'm sorry, but someone telling me, "I had this teacher once who did this, so we need to regulate the whole community of teachers?" just doesn't cut it...

I think the Governor's staff trying to find stories of poor performing teachers displays that they really can't put their finger on the problem either.

Have we even defined what poor performing is for the public? Nope... We got no numbers either...

If we don't really know what the problem is, how do we put forth a solution?

Scott

Here's an example from Arnold's website.

In the San Bernardino School District, a teacher called her students derogatory names, told students to “Shut up,” swore at them, showed R-rated movies and once even sent a 4th grade student to her car to retrieve a butcher knife. Was she fired? No! Instead, because of tenure rules, the school district actually paid the teacher $25,000 to get her to resign! (Riverside Press Enterprise, 4/7/99)

So, because a San Bernadino teacher in 1999 did this, we need to change this for 2006. Looks like some reaching to me...

Scott

Actually,

I mis-spoke...

This is the only example on the Arnold Web page of the problem. Maybe, he'll get a lot of votes in San Bernardino.

That's just absurd.

Scott

Scott,

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I will ask my question again. Is early tenure simply a stop-loss program?

Why, as Jerre asks, shouldn't teachers be at-will employees? How do teachers feel about carrying weaker teachers?

I actually don't think reform should be centered on tenure at all. "Reform" should be focused on setting statewide educational standards, and then developing curriculum and teacher training targeted at acheiving those standards.

Combine that with financial reform of the system, where it's a classic shell game. Lots of different "funds" and "budgets" that require lots of man hours to manage, and demand each district have a CFO or AT LEAST a CPA to manage them.

Combine that with an innovative rewards program for teachers who create, innovate, contribute curriculum etc...

I am still waiting for proposed solutions... Perhaps the governor could learn something by them.

Tim

Public employment such as public school teachers have never been at will and never will be. Here is why...

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Early in this century it was decided by the courts that a job in government is considered a property right and therefore due process of law must be followed when firing an employee. Under this framework, government is severely limited in hiring in firing government employees such as workers at the DMV.

You all have to understand that I'm from Generation X. My generation is fighting a war, won't get social security, have a radically changed pension system or none at all... We are stuck in the shrinking middle class, the two income trap where both parents are working, and higher and higher health insurance premiums.

It's different from my perspective because all the boomers who have benefitted from the way things are, now want to change all the rules at the expense of the future and future generations.

It's also designed to take away all the benefits that the Boomers had when they were in their 20-40's from the next generation now entering this age group.

I kind of see this "reform" as just another attempt to take away benefits that were once enjoyed by boomers.

I'm not totally blaming boomers either. My generations seems to not want to step up to the plate and start voicing our opinion on serious matters effecting our generation.

We have the highest levels of community and volunteer service in the history of the US, but we don't show up to the polls. More gen Xers are running for office than in previous generations, but less than 50% of my generation votes.

No one listens when you don't vote.

Jerre,
You of all people should know what life is really like for a teacher. Also you are either ignorant or knowingly lying when you say teachers have tenure and a job for life. College professors get tenure, not teachers, we get what is called by Ed. Code "Permanancy". Teachers are fired all the time in California for different reasons and the Ed. Code has a process a District can follow to fire someone. But what does permanancy give a teacher? The right to a hearing where proof is provided. If that is a right you do not have Jerre than shame on you, you should have that right at work! It seems to me that a lot of people out there have accepted that instead of getting the WalMart type workers better pay and benefits, we should instead drag everyone else down to that level because "If I don't get something then no one should!" attitude, its a race to the bottom. If 74 passes a veteran teacher will be able to be fired based on two bad evaluations and they will not be able to challenge the content of those evaluations even if they are lies. Come on Jerre, you really believe every Principal out there is fair? We give criminals a fair hearing and we must prove their guilt, are you really saying we should treat criminals better than teachers Jerre!?

Also in case you guys missed it a U.S. District Judge threw out a petition by the "Right to Work Committee" to get a temporary restraining order against CTA for it's recent temporary dues increase. The judge found no basis in law for a temporary restraining order. This frivolous lawsuit was also backed by State Senator Tom McClintock. I guess for McClintock a lawsuit is only frivolous when filed against one of his donors. The newest polls are also showing only 31% of adults in California approve of the job Arnold is doing and all of his initiatives are trailing and people don't want him back as governor.

Folks,

Let's say you are the governor of California. You and a friendly legislature have $100-115 billion to spend annually. The law ties your hands in various areas, requiring X % be spent on transportation, another X% on education etc...

With 40% + of the $115 billion to be spent on education, how would you prioritize and spend it to bring California's schools back to the golden age? How would you invest the dollars?

What would your priorities be?

Tim

Ahhh. So much to respond to in the blog. Now we’re getting away from the debate on Prop 74. Tenure in 2 years or tenure in 5 years?

Scott nailed it – every year is a year of reform for education. It gives parents new to the public school system hope. Yet year after year, little changes. Oh, reformers nibble away at the edges, but nothing substantive will change. It took me 5 years to realize that. Then I asked one of the teachers at the public school where his kids went to school. He pointed down the block to a private school. All of you will see that the parental involvement drops off logarithmically with each higher grade.

Tim, five years ago this state set standards for a high school education. And each student was expected to pass a high school exit exam. Two years ago, the state educational establishment realized that thousands of kids were not going to pass the exam. When the politicians heard about this, they panicked. They knew that the parents would rise in revolt when the kids find out that they were not going to get a diploma. So the educrats and bureaucrats got together and decided to sweep away the line in the sand and move it down the road by two years. Well, guess what? The latest information suggests that up to 100,000 seniors will not get a diploma. So much for setting standards! Now the ‘crats want to permit alternative methods to verify that the students have received the appropriate education. What a crock! They just don’t want to face the parents. Not that the parents are blameless, because they share the blame. So let’s watch and see what the ‘crats do to justify receiving a diploma. Is this the kind of education systems you guys want your kids in? If the requirements to receive a diploma are subjective, how much is that diploma really worth? Will colleges and businesses have any more faith in the system?

Mediocrity will reign in the school system as long as teachers have tenure and are paid based on their years of experience. There are good teachers and bad teachers. (And it has nothing to do with what grade a kid earns.) And because a bad teacher gets exactly the same pay as a good teacher, sooner or later the good teacher just gives up. Why work harder for the same pay? Just like every other employee (except union employees), a teacher will sit down with the principal at the beginning of the year and together they will establish reasonable goals, which both agree with. If the goals are met, the teacher gets a raise (or a pro-rated raise as a percentage of the goals met). If the goals are not met, the teacher gets no raise. After two years of failing to meet goals, the teacher should be let go. That’s how it works in the real world. Let’s say a teacher needs heart surgery. I wonder then if the teacher figures that every doctor with 10 years experience is the same. I’ll bet not.

And Arleigh, please give us the facts on how many teachers were terminated due to performance, each year for the last 5 years. Or point us to where that information is. Rather than protect every teacher from termination, the union needs to get out in front of this and work with the district to identify poor teachers and then the union should provide the training and support to make them a better teacher. You really don’t want to let the citizens have to take action like Prop 74. Demonstrate to the parents that you realize that the quality of teachers varies and that you are taking a proactive approach to improve the quality of teachers.

Jerre give me a break! All your doing is spouting right wing slogans. Think for yourself. Have you ever taught in a California classroom? What model do you have to show the things you are talking about actually work? I know they came up with a merit pay system in Denver that would cost taxpayers millions more a year, last I heard they were still waiting for it to be passed by voters. I noticed Arnold gave up on his merit pay initiative, why? I'm starting to remember why I left this blog in the first place because you guys don't listen. Let me say it again, actually let me shout it, CALIFORNIA IS THE RICHEST STATE IN THE UNION AND WE FUND OUR SCHOOLS AT A RATE THAT MAKES US 44TH. WE HAVE THE SECOND HIGHEST CLASS SIZES IN THE NATION. TEACHERS ARE BETTER WHEN THEY HAVE 25 KIDS THAN 40 KIDS. SOCIO-ECONOMICS DO MATTER. IT IS NOT A COINCIDENCE THAT LAS VIRGENES HAS MUCH HIGHER TEST SCORES THAN LA UNIFIED. When you guys have actually walked in my shoes and the shoes of my members I will listen.

Arleigh:

I think your last sentence you lifted from what I'm saying. I haven't walked in your shoes, but many of my family members have and I think its more an administration and politician problem than a teacher problem. Six members of my family have worked as teachers spanning from the 1930's to present. All in the public schools.

Yes, I haven't taught in a classroom, but I've heard enough about every funding cut, obnoxious parent, problem kid, and incompetant administrator for years. How many administrators get reshuffled because we don't have the courage to fire?

Believe me, A thanksgiving or christmas has not gone by since I've been alive without some discussion on schools, college, or educational advancement.

Education is personal for me and here is why...

Have you ever seen a teacher cry when she gets home from work because some parent decided he was going to wait in the parking lot, so he could curse her out for the grade she just gave their child? I have and it's an abomination when no action is taken because administrators don't want to offend parents.

These types of things happened for years.

My Aunt, a third grade teacher, who I lived with when I interned in Washington, used to say, "we're the hired help" and sometimes we'd find negative letters in her box regarding some angry parent's kid... Yes, these people would leave anonymous abusive letters in my aunt's mailboxes... she taught in a wealthy area. I wonder what teachers go through in less affluent areas. Probably get shot at on the way home...

So we want to take away tenure from teachers who get verbally abused or threatened all the time? We want to make sure they are the "hired help..." That's a bunch of crap.

Let's give'em the respect they deserve instead of half-baked proposals that nibble around the edges as Jerre says... Let's get real and start taking a hard look at educational leadership at the administrative level...

Arleigh and Tim:

Where do you see the funding issues the most in schools today? Is it books, desks, construction, computers, or supplies, teachers, nurses? Where are the dollars short the most?

Tim: Have you seen the cuts in your children's classroom?

I think the issue I'm having is I haven't identified where the problem of funding in the schools are, just as I haven't identified the rationale for changing the tenure requirements?

We can talk like Carl Sagan "Billions and Billions." But, seriously how's the lack dollars effecting the kids?

Let's put a human face on it... That's where the solutions are.

Tim, you're question of what I would do scares me. I need to do some thinking. I'd probably spend every dollar on Simi Valley schools and make it the model for the state.... But, hey thats just me.

Scott

Well see, that is one of the problems. Everytime I ask what we should do, what the numbers are, what we should fund, the answers I get are talking points, or none at all.

Arleigh, the "44th in the nation" stuff simply is a meaningless stat. Talk to me about solutions? I've asked before, and I will ask this question: What's the number? What amount of money would it require to fund California's schools to the level you are asking? If we're 44th, then there has to be a #1. If so, who are they, what's their budget and how much is that if you extrapolate it to California?

If we spent $20,000 per child in California, how would you spend it?

I am not being cynical, and I am being civil as you requested, but it's time to pony up some answers.

Here's why:

Scott's right. Without numbers, without knowing what it will cost, there is no way to get the taxpayer to pony up. There is no way to write a business case and justify the dollars, if no one will tell us what the true costs are.

You tell me what the numbers are, and what would change in our schools, such as class sized reduction (love it), restored classroom supplies budgets for all teachers (love it), arts and music education fully restored to the elementary school level (love it, support it, want it), science & math education that would be the envy of the nation, and I will not only applaud, I will HELP YOU get the money!

But at the same time, you've got to agree to help me eliminate waste, inefficiencies and put more of the wasted dollars into the classroom to help kids.

Do we have a deal? I want to know what you and the teachers you represent want.

Tim Keaney

Scott,

To answer your post specifically, here is where I see short falls that need to be addressed to improve our schools for the long-term:

Teacher supplies: It's unconscionable that teachers have to buy their own supplies. Now in many cases, these are supplies and programs that they want to use and are willing to spend (one friend of mine spends thousands every year). At the same time, each teacher should have a much more extensive budget to support their classrooms. The rapid expansion of Education Foundations is proof positive of this.

Music & Arts Education: These shouldn't be funded by your local PTA, they should be recognized as the educational strengths and cognitive contributors that they are, and funded at the earliest possible grade level.

Class Size: My daughter just went from 3rd grade to 4th grade, which is a "promotion" from 20 kids in the classroom to 38. She's got a talented, innovative young teacher (like I had in 4th grade!)

Maintenance: The budget for maintenance is ridiculous. Bottom line. Rats & Termites feast on low maintenance budgets.

Waste: I see many instances where technology advances are not getting into the classroom, or even on campus. Thousands are spent every year on computers, networking gear and the like, but thousands could also be saved through innovative technology uses and innovation. In one of my last posts, I talked about including kids in some of this innovation, including them in both the planning and implementation of such uses, that would help them, and districts.

These are simply my observations Scott, as a parent. I would welcome input from teachers, district officials and classified staff.

Tim

Interesting...

http://www2.dailynews.com/news/ci_3076834 (high school exit exam)

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-exit1oct01,0,7413567.story?coll=la-story-footer&track=morenews (Seniors Failing)

From this article on Emeryville Schools, these quotes:

"We're all learning from Emeryville, including me," O'Connell said today.

Emeryville is a good role model for school districts in other cities, such as Oakland and Vallejo, which are currently under state control due to various problems, he said.

O'Connell noted that Emery Unified has partnered with the city of Emeryville and the Bay Area Coalition for Equitable Schools to implement an initiative to improve the teaching of mathematics, science and technology in the district's schools.

Several professors from the University of California at Berkeley are working with the school district to teach students skills in those areas, he said.

Smith said "the power of partnerships" has helped Emeryville's school district improve student achievement.

Parents, principals, business leaders, city officials and UC Berkeley professors have all played important roles in the district's turnaround, he said.

Read the whole article here:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/5053446/detail.html

Partnerships... I've heard that one before somewhere!

Tim Keaney

This is an interesing Article from the San Jose Mercury News. So interesting, I am posting it in it's entirety:

Prop. 74 takes on teacher tenure

By Dana Hull

Mercury News

Gwen Jones just started her second year of teaching at San Jose's Bachrodt Academy. If her principal remains pleased with her work in the classroom, she'll automatically gain permanent status -- or tenure -- at the end of this school year.

But her path to tenure would grow much longer if California voters approve Proposition 74 in the Nov. 8 special election. The controversial initiative, which Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger calls the ``Put the Kids First Act,'' would extend the time it takes for teachers to become permanent employees from two to five years -- and make it much easier to fire tenured teachers.

Supporters say the initiative is needed to weed out the ``bad apples'' among the more than 300,000 teachers educating California's 6 million public school students. Opponents warn that extending the tenure track will make new teachers think twice about staying in the profession, exacerbating the state's looming teacher shortage. The Proposition 74 fight has further inflamed the governor's long-running battles with the state's teachers unions.

``I love teaching. I gave my stuffed animals homework when I was a kid,'' said Jones, 26, who arrives at her third-grade classroom at 6 a.m. and regularly works 12-hour days. ``But when you are not permanent, you can be let go without being told the reason why or shown any proof that you did anything wrong. It's nerve-racking. The idea of having to wait five years is discouraging.''

Initiative advocates say that not only is it too easy to get permanent status, but once a teacher makes it over that two-year hump it becomes too difficult to fire them. The state does not track how many teachers are fired. San Jose Unified, with 1,800 teachers, dismisses a handful each year.

Principals and superintendents acknowledge firing a tenured teacher takes a great deal of time, paperwork and careful documentation, not to mention a protracted and often nasty fight with the local teachers union.

Every district has a horror story: It took years for San Francisco Unified to fire a special education teacher who regularly made racist comments and showed his students a stun gun.

``If a teacher rapes a student or walks off with district funds, they can be fired,'' said Bill Evers, a member of the Santa Clara County Board of Education, which has endorsed Proposition 74. The California School Boards Association opposes the measure. ``But it is very hard to fire a teacher for not being successful in getting children to learn.''

Kate Walsh, the executive director of the National Council on Teacher Quality, doesn't think that making it easier to fire teachers is the best way to strengthen the profession. But she agrees that states should extend tenure times.

``Teacher quality is the most important school factor that determines whether a student succeeds or fails. It's more important than class-size reduction or the money spent on a school,'' said Walsh.

In 33 states, including Florida, Texas and New York, the probationary period for new teachers is three years. Many say it takes at least that long for new teachers to learn the ropes and really hit their stride. Only two states -- Indiana and Missouri -- have a five-year probationary period, according to California's Legislative Analyst's Office.

``Two years is not enough time for schools to determine if a new teacher is the right fit in the classroom,'' said Margaret Fortune, an education adviser to Schwarzenegger who is spearheading the Yes on 74 campaign. Generally, teachers keep tenure if they move among schools within a district but must start over again if they change districts.

Others warn that all the fuss over tenure and firing is the least of California's worries. They say the state is on the verge of an enormous teacher shortage, and that Proposition 74 will make teaching a less attractive profession at precisely the time when bright, energetic, committed teachers are most needed.

Nationwide, the K-12 teaching force is aging rapidly, a trend that holds true in the Golden State. In 2003-04, the most recent year for which data is available, 12,300 teachers retired, according to the California State Teachers' Retirement System. That number has steadily risen in recent years as teachers in the baby boom generation reach retirement age.

``California is going to need to replace around 100,000 teachers, or one-third of the workforce, in the next 10 years,'' said Margaret Gaston of the Center for the Future of Teaching and Learning in Santa Cruz. ``The message seems to be that we need to get rid of more teachers. The fact is that we need more well-prepared teachers.''

Contact Dana Hull at dhull@mercurynews.com or (408) 920-2706.

Tim:

That's what I like to hear. Now, I can put some faces on the problems. I don't like the way I'm perceiving this special election as "open season" on teachers at all. It just doesn't feel right.

Do you think if there was a proposition on supply budget enhancement for every teacher in every classroom, people would vote for it. I say if they are willing to go to Staples and pay for school supplies, than most people would vote to earmark funds for the supply budget stream.

There is so much here, I gotta think about it. Thakns for the post. I am very interested in how otherrs put a human face on where the budget needs to go.

Scott

Scott,

I think we've already seen the damage that can be done by legislation through popular initiative. The larger the bully pulpit, the more success in many cases at the polls, even when it's not the right thing.

Legislating through the Ballot about school supply budgets seems to be legislating micromanagement by the voter. Do I think it would win? Yes. Do I think it's a wise way to do this? No I don't.

In many districts, the challenges are different. I have friends in Canyon Country (Santa Clarita) who's kids attend a brand new school (no termites), where they have music, the arts and many other great programs. But they don't have the budget for reading intervention, a school nurse or math tutoring. But they do have a library open full time, which is GREAT!

I think it's up to the community to determine how to best acheive state and federal standards, and then a business case should be built for the funding.

Again, at this critical juncture, I think we need to stop focusing on "This is what we get, and it stinks" and instead focus on "This is what we NEED, and here's how much it is, and how do we communicate that to the people?

Trust me - Parents are hit up all the time for school fundraisers, donations, school supplies etc... in addition to the taxes they are already paying. Let's stop treating our schools like non-profits and communicate a vision and plan to take our schools to #1 in the nation.

Any takers?

Tim

By the time you get the list of what everyone thinks is “needed” it will, indeed, be a very long list. And then the haggling will start about which items will stay on the list and in what order.

Clearly there are more things wrong with public schools than just whether teachers have tenure or not. I was at a breakfast meeting this morning with Assemblyman Keith Richman (his assembly district cover part of Simi Valley). Public schools, especially L. A. Unified, were discussed. He pointed out that the average per student funding from all sources is over $10,000. His observation was the same as many people – if $10,000 is not enough, how much is enough? He forecasts that LAUSD will go bankrupt due in large part to the unfunded pension and medical benefits. I recall that he said that LAUSD must set aside $500,000 per year for the next 30 years to fund the retirement obligations – and that’s money not going into the classroom. (Greg Stratton was there. He may better remember some of the numbers.) Keith is a supporter of charter schools, and charter schools may be the one option that you guys can pursue to get the kind of schools you want. But the teachers union will resist the formation of charter schools.

If you formed a charter school with only a couple of hundred kids whose parents were fairly unified in what they expect of a school, it might work for you and yours. You can hire the principal, hire the teachers, set the educational program, etc., etc. Other than that, as I have said before, find an existing school that meets your needs. Fighting the good fight takes a heavy toll, but if you can hang in there long enough, a charter school may be the way to go.

But back to Prop 74. Certain teachers just don’t make the grade (pun intended) and at any given school, the other teachers know who they are. If the teachers and the unions want to keep these types of propositions off the ballot, then they need to get together and act themselves. The unions raised $60 million to fight this proposition. Wouldn’t everyone be better off if they worked to bring all teachers up to an “A” in achievement?

From the Sac Bee:

Ad Watch: Spot targets teacher tenure plan

Published 2:15 am PDT Friday, October 7, 2005
Story appeared on Page A3 of The Bee
Opponents of Proposition 74, the teacher tenure initiative, have begun airing two ads against it.
Below is the text of one of the spots and an analysis by Peter Hecht of The Bee Capitol Bureau:

STEPHANIE FLOYD-SMITH, seventh-grade teacher: Governor, you've already broken your promises on education. Now you're sponsoring Proposition 74, a ballot measure that allows one principal to fire a teacher without giving a reason - or even a hearing. While doing nothing to improve teacher training.

RENEE STEWART, elementary school parent: Parents like me are voting no on Prop. 74 to send the governor a message: Stop playing politics with our schools. And get to work on smaller class sizes, up-to-date textbooks, and restoring music and art classes - the things our kids really need.
ANALYSIS: The initiative, which would extend teachers' probationary periods from two to five years, does make changes in the dismissal process for teachers.

But the changes aren't as severe as the ad makes them sound. School boards could dismiss teachers who receive two consecutive unsatisfactory performance evaluations. That's less documentation than required under current law, but the evaluations presumably would cite reasons for a district's unhappiness with their efforts. Teachers who were dismissed could get a hearing - but only after they were fired. Current law provides for a hearing before a teacher is let go.

Finally, principals can't fire teachers single-handedly. While they can make a recommendation, school boards have the final say on whether a teacher is dismissed.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's aides have acknowledged that he didn't keep a promise he made to education officials last year, when he persuaded them to accept suspension of school funding guarantees required under Proposition 98, which was approved by voters in 1988.

The Governor's Office said the funding would be restored in future years when the state's fiscal position brightened. But the Republican governor announced in January that his second budget wouldn't repay the money, despite growing revenues, because the state needed to fund other priorities such as transportation.

Jerre,
Since you hate teachers unions so much why did you come and ask for our endorsement when you ran for the Board? I'll tell you what Jerre, tell me where you work and I'll help you organize a union. That way you will no longer live in fear of being fired without cause and you will get better pay and benefits.
Thinking about Prop 75, can I opt out of my federal and state taxes? I'm tired of Bush and Arnold using my tax money for politics (propaganda for NCLB, propaganda films by Arnold to take away overtime from workers). I also do not want my money being used to rebuild Iraq, I want it to go to schools. CTA members can already opt out of political spending, can I? Where is the form? What is that you say? Cheney needs more of my tax money for Halliburton? No money left for schools? Hmmmm, must be the teachers fault that Iraq is sucking up our tax dollars leaving the schools shortchanged. Lets use the corporate model like Enron, oops, bad example, World Com, Adelphia, Tyco, Health South?????

Posters...

What we're doing here is debating prop 74, and it's purposes and ramifications. I won't let this become a partisan hack-fest, there are plenty of other blogs for that.

What I want is for people to stop being afraid to answer the ACTUAL questions at hand. See above for my specific questions, and let's get some answers.

Arleigh, I just don't know how you get from Jerre's comments about funding and Charter Schools, and leap to WorldCom, Tyco and Adelphia. Those are irrelavant to the discussion.

In this blog, I am trying to shine a light on to the great, educational issues of our day. I want to know what it should cost, how much money our schools need (You keep telling us they are short-changed, but against what figures are you referring to?)

I am trying to help parents, teachers and educational generally by promoting discussions that can turn into solutions.

So.. I am still waiting for the debate...California's kids deserve no less.

Tim

Pardon me for another long answer.

OK, let’s see if we can answer some of Tim’s questions.

Q. How would you reward a teacher who works overtime every day?
A. It depends if the overtime is necessary. That would have to be worked out between the teacher and the principal, just as I would have to work it out with my boss. Some teachers are out the door five minutes after the kids leave, some stay longer to complete necessary work. It would be difficult for someone like me to determine if the additional hours are just part of the job or not. I have sympathy for English teachers because they spend some much extra time reading essays and such, as opposed to maybe a math teacher who can use Scantron for correcting homework and tests.

Q. Are all teachers the same, deserving the same pay and benefits?
A. Definitely not! Just as no two engineers are the same, no two machinists are the same, no two fast food managers are the same, and certainly no two web designers are the same. Pay should be apportioned based on value to the students. If pay is not a discriminator, why should any employee, teacher or engineer or manager or web designer, go the extra mile. Pay is the scorecard for knowing those who provide more value.

Q. If a teacher purchases thousands of dollars in supplies every year, works overtime, and is a creative lesson planner, should they be rewarded over those who aren’t
A. Absolutely! It is a means of encouraging this kind of positive behavior.

Q. What kinds of programs and academic programs and freedoms are needed to pull California’s schools ahead?
A. This is a tough one, and every one is going to have a different answer. Personally, I would recommend that every student be on an academic plan to take the necessary courses in order to enter a 4-year college upon graduation from high school. (It has nothing to do with AP classes.) But I realize that not every student would appreciate this workload. Therefore, an alternative would exist whereby a parent could “opt out” of the default plan.

Q. What “reforms” in the educational system would you like to see on the ballot?
A. None! The ballot is not the place to legislate educational programs. The citizens elect the local Board of Education. The citizens choose the candidates that they believe will carry out education policy that the voter prefers.

Q. If a large % of teachers statewide leave the profession at or before 5 years, could two year tenure be looked at as more of a stop gap, or in military terms, a stop loss, program?
R. It has been said that up to 50% of new teachers leave the profession by the end of 5 years. But I’m not so sure that this is any different that any other career that college grads enter. It is also said that college grads change companies several times during their first few years out of school. Is choosing to teach and leaving within 5 years any different than choosing accounting and leaving within 5 years? It may simply be the age. Have any studies been done on teachers who are 30+ when they first enter the profession? I don’t know.

Q. If the profession (for many reasons) drives away many in the first 5 years, what can we do, other than tenure, to enhance and improve their experience?
R. Pay for performance! I think the reason so many leave is that they are working very hard to become a good teacher, and then discover that no matter how hard (or not hard) they work, they are going to get the same increase. Those who are driven by performance may simply choose to enter a career where they will be rewarded for that performance. Get rid of the teachers’ pay schedule and start paying for performance. Tenure would not be an issue. If a teacher got passed over for a merit raise two or three years in a row, they might seek employment better suited to their skills.

Tim,
Sounds more like you want answers that fit what you already believe. What I'm offering is the truth about how things really are, and how they can be improved. Out of everyone on your blog, I'm the only one who has actually spent years in the classroom. If you want to know how to stop crime, ask a patrol cop, if you want to know how to stop fires, ask a fireman, if you want to really know how to improve education ask a teacher. Adios.

I have been asking you this whole time how much money you need, and I have even offered to help you get it, but all I get is more of the same. You are the only one I have been addressing the money question to, because you keep bringing it up. It must be important? Are you saying to me that you want all this additional funding, but that no one has done the math to figure out how much you actually need? Seems like a weak bargaining position to me.

Have you ever gone for a home loan before knowing how much the home was? How about a car loan?

You are asking taxpayers (you included by the way) for additional dollars for education, but not once have you given us a figure to work with, or how it would be used.

If you asked a student for this kind of straight answer, and all they gave you was something different, I have a feeling that student would fail the class.

Now do your homework and get me some numbers.

Tim Keaney

Page 12 of the voter guide list all states and their tenure requirements. I coorelated them with per student funding by state according to the US census.

Since funding has become a big issue in this blog, here is a compromise that I'd like thoughts on.

According to the census, #1 New York spends $10,922 per student and has a three year probationary period for teachers.

Without arguing about how, who would accept a 3 year waiting period for teachers coupled with 10,922 per student?

Of the nine states that have two year tenure, California ranks 5th in per student spending. Vermont ranks number one in per student spending in the two year tenure bracket.

Only two states have a 5 year tenure rule, Indiana and Missouri and CA would rank ahead of Missouri and behind Indiana in per student spending if prop 74 becomes law.

Scott

Also,

The voter guide says that from 1927 to 1982, the law was three years, which included CA's golden age for education. I think a return to three years is sufficient time to assess a teacher. Five years just seems too punitive and only two states in the union have that. Three years represent most of the country.

Scott

Tim,
Well how about this. Let's at least move California into 25th place in terms of funding per pupil, from our current 44th. Don't you think kids in California deserve to at least be ahead of Alabama? But in terms of giving a straight answer give me a break. None of you guys have answered one of my tough questions about anything. I asked Jerre for example why if he hates teachers unions he asked for our endorsement? (I'd ask you the same question but I promised not to bring up the last election). So in terms of actually answering questions I'm the only one on this blog with the guts to do so.

I can't control what Jerre does or does not respond to. This is a free-flow exchange. If he doesn't want to debate, it's up to him.

I think your funding numbers are very interesting, and I will think about how we get there. This is obviously not an overnight solution.

Tim

p.s. From the Sac Bee...

http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/ca/election/story/13694558p-14537378c.html

Tim,
I'm for looking into everything money wise, all the savings from waste, etc, as long as you are willing to also listen to what the things are that make for better teaching. Smaller classes, technology that works, up to date books, pull out programs for students who are lagging, and those that disrupt learning, etc. Do you agree that being 44th in funding is not a good place for California to be?

I think California schools lagging in anything needs to be fixed. Can you send me to a web page where I can see those state by state funding rankings?

Tim

Arleigh,

I am working on finding some facts, some enrollment numbers etc.. so I can start the topic. Can you help me find that per state per pupil funding chart you are referencing, and the # of students in California Schools (I show a number of 7 million).

Thanks!

According to the annual survey of local government finances, it ranks CA 24th in per pupil funding. This is on page 164 of How California Schools Work: a practical guide for parents published in 2004.

I agree that we need smaller classrooms (something private schools have), up to date text books, and an end to wasteful spending.

Scott

I think we can all agree on those goals.

I will be posting a topic on per pupil spending very soon, so we can discuss the goals of the CTA and CA education establishment, and the discrepancies in per pupil funding numbers already evidenced by this discussion.

Scott - In that report, did they give you the number? If schools in CA got $61 billion this year, and we have 7 million students, I calculate that to mean over $8K per student.

Tim

Tim:

What number are you referring to? 7 million students is from the state department of education.

If you divide 61 billion/ 7 million its $8,714.29 per student. You are correct...

Scott

The ranking of 44th is based on a 2005 survey by "Education Week" of all states in per pupil funding.

The Rand study also places us at 44th. But, still, should we not strive for #1? Don't you guys believe in being the best? Don't settle for average!

Without seeing the numbers and the factors that contribute to the numbers, 44th sucks.

Scott

My gosh, I just read that whole blog and there's nothing for the last week and a half. What did you all come up with?
I'm also a teacher and I'd like to put in my two cents worth...
I just don't want to write a whole thing and then no one responds...

Julie,

We'll respond for sure. Sometimes blog threads run out of gas, because we move onto other issues. But by all means, please post your thoughts and I will make sure they get responded to.

Are you a local teacher? What district?

Tim Keaney

Yes, I am a teacher. I teach high school French in the Palm Springs Unified District. I lived very happily in San Diego for 30 years but had to move because I lost my teaching job there. My school was one of three to close to reopen as small schools. I was completely satisfied with my job. I loved the school and had history with it. I was let go, not being tenured after substitute teaching for four years waiting for a contracted position. After giving my life to this school, the creation of a small school, the students, and the other teachers, I was "not rehired" because they could not afford the French program. It was crushing. After waiting and waiting for a job, I had one, just to have it taken away. I was totally in support of the small schools, even more so than most other teachers at the school, but look at who has jobs and who doesn't.
After 2 and a half years towards my tenure, I had to start over from the bottom AGAIN! This is my 7th year teaching. All to be thrown away 3 times waiting for a real job.
Where I used to teach, in San Diego, every teacher had a credential, if not a masters. Now, in my new district, it is not unuasual for teachers to not have a credential. Emergencies are quite frequent, some subs don't even have interest in teaching, they just do it on the side. Two of the five teachers in my department have no credential - they are working for it. We are so desperate for teachers here that we've hired someone who barely speaks English to teach English Language Development. Why discourage more teachers from the profession? Why not reward people who want to work their butts off all the time (yes, even during our summers we work like dogs to get packed up in two weeks just to three weeks later, unpack for the start of the new year - all the while, organizing papers at home, rewriting cirrculum, hoping for books that aren't 30 years old), have no parent support, no learning materials created in this century (or the last two, to think of it), and everything else that happens to us - copy machines broken every day, fire alarms during tests, bathrooms being locked to students...I can't seem to stop. But you've heard all of that before. Nothing new, I know!
What should worry you the most is that 3rd and 4th graders are learning from Social Studies textbooks that are 15 years old. The USSR is our enemy and the Berlin wall pictures are great! Our Spanish books talk about one day in the future, we may even have phones without cords!! They think they maybe called wireless phones. And that there may, one day, be a computer in almost every household in America. Wow, that sounds great!
My textbooks are mostly useless since they are over 10 years old, show French Francs, and 90% have profanity written all over them. I can't use them. So, where do my students get information? From me, of corse, but I must be a horrible teacher because I can't afford to buy things for my classroom to help them learn...a grammar text would help - something for them to look at instead of just me all the time. It takes 15 minutes of class each time I give them homework becuase we have no consumables. The students can not learn sans textes! Its not fair.

I guess my point is if we can't afford things that WE KNOW affect the learning of students, why are we looking at things that have absolutly NO research or statistics to support how students learn? If you want to learn anything, you have to have input, guided practice, and independent practice. How do we get any of those from me being evaluated 6 more times?

There are 5 of us responding to this blog, how many TRUELY bad teachers did you have in your lifetime? I've probably had close to 150 (being a student for almost 22 years) and I don't remember once a teacher bringing a butcher knife to theaten me, saying any bad words to me or anyone else I knew...maybe some of them pissed me off really bad, but that was usually my fault. I would argue that bad teachers can put on a dog and pony show for observations and go back to their gun-toting days themselves. Just because they're truly bad teachers doesn't mean they can borrow stuff from a good teacher, just to fool you! This is punishing us new good teachers and not taking care of the problem.
Why are they bad teachers? The state gave us all credentials? Why? Maybe more support in the classroom would help?