I think it's good that 90% have passed. I also think it shows that poverty and having English as a second language are holding a lot of kids back, and that more needs to be done for those students, in and out, of school.

I notice that you REFUSE to talk about LNG!

Admit it!

uh - Solar... This is an educational issues blog. If you want to talk about LNG, as in Liquified Natural Gas, chime in somewhere else.

If, however, you are talking about "Learning Not Guaranteed", I welcome your feedback.

Tim

Arleigh is right! We need to re-direct some of the current resources to programs that target the ESL kids.

Jerre, Arleigh:

Do you think California schools should be responsible to fully educate citizens of other countries that have entered the United States illegally?

Scott

Scott,
Interesting question. If a child is brought here by their parents illegally, should we punish the child by with holding learning? If the same illegal child goes to Church should a priest with hold the word of God for the same reason? Or do some things goes beyond man made borders and man made laws?

Arleigh:

By offering those services though, are we not encouraging illegal behavior? I certainly don't want to get into a "blame the immigrant" type debate. I think there are a myriad of options out there that can improve the situation for all sides.

I was just interested in the thoughts of everyone on the current debate in Congress.

Scott

As a high school senior who passed the high school exit exam the first time I took it, I have to say that the only possibe excuses for not passing it would be a serious learning disability, or a language barrier.

Kaylee,
Congratulations.
Scott,
If a child was brought here illegally they are already here. How does educating a child encourage illegal behavior? Would you not rather have that child grow up educated as a benefit to the world community? Is not ignorance the scurge of the planet?

Kaylee,

Congrats on passing the exam and thanks for your comments. What school do you go to?

I would welcome your feedback on what you thought of your high school experience? What would you change? What would you not change?

Do you feel like your high school prepared you for life after high school?

Thanks again for your comments!

Tim

Arleigh:

You have been such a strong advocate on this blog to the scarce resources in public schools, yet don't mind seeing those scarce resources going to non-citizens? Explain?

Scott

Tim,

I go to Simi High, and frankly, I think most of my high school career was a waste of time. Most councilors were too busy being yard supervisors to have the time to sit down and answer my questions, no matter how insignificant they may have seemed. Because of that, I took many of the wrong classes, and now I have to go to Moorpark Community College for two years before I am eligible to transfer to a university. I went to Santa Susana for my freshmen year, and transferred because the administration and teaching staff were unavailable and, in my experience, incompetent.

I've been trying to read newspapers and get involved in politics via the Internet, because my current government class is mainly based on cutting and pasting. Not one single debate has taken place. I would be completely lost if it weren’t for my psychology teacher, Sue Lebeck. I think it is unfair that I have to ask other teachers to teach me the things I should already learning in other classes.

The major thing I would change about High School is the standards. They are far too low.

The only real thing I can think of that high school has taught me is patience.

Arleigh,

I think there is a big difference between America witholding education and the Church witholding the word of God. Words can be freely given, whereas school supplies and space in the classroom are limited. Shouldn't we make sure American citizens are getting a good education before we go and try to save the world?

First, Scott. Yes we should be fully responsible to educate citizens of other countries that have entered the United States illegally. Why? It’s the law!
Many of the kids in the public schools are here legally, by virtue of being born here. The others were brought here by their parents, so it would be ridiculous to punish them for their parents choice. Besides, we have other ways to deal with these countries that encourage their people to come here. We just don’t have the guts to do it.

Kaylee: Thank you so much for you comments! I think some of the bloggers are in denial about the value of the schools locally. OK people, do you believe Kaylee? Are the conditions similar at the other public high schools in the area? How much face time is your child going to get with a counselor if the ratio is 1 counselor to 600 kids AND the counselors have to spend some of that precious time doing yard duty and other non-counseling tasks? How will you know that you kids are getting the right classes for their post-high school life?

Well?

Please, Kaylee, continue to share your high school experiences with us.

Kaylee,

Thanks for your last comments. They were insightful, scary and eloquent.

I hope that they give all of our readers pause as we debate education in California.

I guess it makes recent campaign promises like "I'll double the number of counselors" ring hollow, doesn't it?

We need more than incremental solutions. We need to re-think our approach to comprehensive high school.

Kaylee seems like an intelligent, well spoken student who is aware of the issues and is able to communicate them. Can you imagine the number of kids who can't?

I welcome more comments from Kaylee, and hopefully her friends!

Tim

I,too, want to applaud Kaylee for taking the initiative to become part of this blog. I am proud that she is one of many of our intelligent, concerned and politically aware students at Simi High. I'm sure there are more students out there wanting to share their thoughts. Hopefully Kaylee will be a role model for her county peers.

Jerre:

Please note in my question above that I used the word "should", which is a prescriptive term. This would allow to say what you would like to see.

Yes, I am aware of the law in its current form, but since you were making the argument for greater ESL spending, it opened the door for my question.

It is the law, but would you like to see it changed?

Scott

Scott: You’re right, I did not address specifically if we “should” be responsible to fully educate citizens of other countries that have entered the U. S. illegally. Yes, we should. I can see no benefit to blaming the kids for decisions made by their parents. They are here, let’s treat them right. The real problem lies with the countries that encourage this kind of illegal immigration. What can we do to encourage these countries? 1) Send them a bill for educating their citizens. If the bill is not paid in 30 days, reduce that amount from our foreign aid to them and send the money to the school district. 2) Restrict tourism. Hitting them economically is the best way to get their attention. Any other ideas?

The point behind moving some of our existing education resources to helping the ESL kids is that it will bring up the scores for the schools and the district. That will make all of the stakeholders happier and few will care that we are allocating extra money to help a few. Bragging rights will go to the school districts that have the highest CAHSEE passing rates.

Jerre:

I actually think that is a pretty thoughtful answer to focus on other measures. I think it would be an interesting response to actually send foreign countries a bill or tie it to our foreign direct investment strategy. I don't think either of these ideas are being discussed in Congress right now. Maybe, because that is a much more innovative approach... :)

My main problem is the concept of scarcity and equity in our schools. When schools are yearly scraping by to put their budgets together and serve their community, is it really fair for students who are legal citizens to see their resources decline?

Arleigh and Jerre, if we did not have 11 million noncitizens here would that not enable us to reduce class size?

I keep asking myself, Is it fair?

For instance, in Simi our ADA- and correct me if I'm wrong- is about 6,500. Is it incorrect for me to say that if we had zero non-citizen students in our schools and throughout the state, we'd see ADA per student go up?

We would have more resources for less students. am I incorrect?

Also, as we are seeing funding is now being tied to school performance particularly with Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) in NCLB.

Let's say an eigth grade student who has been brought here illegally enters American schools without speaking english. Suddenly, this non-citizen student's test results enter into the funding equation, do they not?

Is that fair?

If we switched to any pay for performance model, is that really fair to teachers who from year to year see increases in 1st time non-english noncitizen students who lack the basic building blocks that our previous grades would have given them?

Is that fair?

Scott

Scott,
If a student is illegal, would you rather have them in school, or on the streets getting into trouble? As a teacher I never got to pick and choose who my students were, nor did I want to. Every student who walked through my door was educated to the best of my abilities. Kaylee I do believe that knowledge is worthless if it is not passed on and passed on to anyone who seeks it, I think we are all better off when literacy is passed on to all who seek it, regardless of where they are from. In terms of illegal immigration I do actually agree with something Arnold S. just said (Scott, I know this shocks you!) that if there are jobs in California that would go unfilled if immigrants did not do these jobs, then let the immigrants in. We are already paying enough for gasoline(thanks to Cheney allowing the oil companies to write the countries energy plan) I do not also want to be paying $15 for a head of lettuce and $5 for a radish!

Scott: I think you are correct. There would be more resources for fewer students. Given no change to Prop 98, which mandates that 40% of the state’s general revenues will be budgeted for K-14 education, clearly the fewer students the more $$ per student. So that point is conceded. (The issues resulting from that are numerous but not part of this blog. What so you do with the 11 million? Are all 11 million illegal? The kids that were born here are legal.) But I do think that the state’s general revenue would decline if you deported all of them. In reality, many are working and paying some income tax, certainly they are paying sales tax, and directly or indirectly they are paying property tax. But in the end, it seems that more $$ per student would be available. So there could be class-size reduction, higher pay for teachers, more counselors and staff, more music, arts and sports programs, newer books, computers, all the things you want. This might even solve some of the issues that Kaylee raised, maybe even all of them. But seeing as how that we’re probably not going to be able to eliminate 11 million, we’re back to Kaylee’s concerns -- do you believe Kaylee? Are the conditions similar at the other public high schools in the area? How much face time is your child going to get with a counselor if the ratio is 1 counselor to 600 kids AND the counselors have to spend some of that precious time doing yard duty and other non-counseling tasks? How will you know that you kids are getting the right classes for their post-high school life?

Arleigh and Jerre:

I appreciate your comments on this subject. I heard the debate in Congress on immigration was set for 1 hour. Do you really think our elected officials can evaluate a piece of legislation and debate to a well reasoned answer in 1 hour?

I think Congress hopes that we pay attention to the students waiving flags in the streets and not what is going on in Washington and the real ramifications of immigration law changes.

Arleigh: I'm interested in your agreement with Arnold because underneath the argument Arnold is making a nod to a minimum wage exempt industry of agribusiness. You raise the point that you don't want to pay 15 dollars for Lettuce or 5 dollars for Radish, but wouldn't a more restrictive labor supply increase wages of farmworkers who are legally here? How can we say Americans don't want that job when under a more strict labor supply those jobs might pay more and grow the smaller farmers into a more competitive marketplace.

Right now, smaller farmers cannot compete with big agribusinesses able to leverage high volumes of minimum wage exempt farmworkers to put the small family farms out of business.

Also, how do you reconcile your argument with your arguments in favor of higher teacher pay? Are you saying you deserve cheap lettuce from low wage farmworkers, but the public doesn't deserve education delivered at the cheapest level possible?

The above argument is more for arguments sake, but I was a little surprised you agreed with Arnold and had to ask that question. It seems your kind of embracing the Wal Mart way.

Jerre:

Kaylee raises some interesting points on school quality. What I'd like to see is more examples of school life and more students coming forward talking about what is going on. From my view, since students don't speak up and start to demand better education, I feel they are generally satisfied with public education.

I'd love to see polling done on what students feel about school quality, but I think it violates student privacy.

You have to wonder, education essentially will be the main engine that drives the economy in the 21st century, yet students seem pretty content with the level of education. If they aren't, then they need to get organized and change it.

Scott

Scott,
I don't think you can equate teacher pay and farm worker pay.

Arleigh:

I'm just trying to understand your thought process.

You have argued numerous times before for increased teacher pay, which I agree with within reason.

Why don't your same arguments for increased teacher pay apply for farmworker pay?

Are farmworkers not deserving enough?

Scott

Scott: Our legislators spend more time putting together their next boon-doggle trip abroad at tax-payer expense that they do debating such complex decisions as immigration reform.

You’ve got a good idea there, i.e. doing a student satisfaction survey. Some colleges do it, but I’ve never seen one at the high school level. I wonder if SVUSD or the County Education Office would be interested in sponsoring a panel discussion of the high school experience. Ideally, you would like to hear from recent graduates, such as Kaylee. Somehow you would want to get a cross-section of students to try and capture the whole story. Still, I’m not sure that most mid and late-teens would be able to put their high school experience in perspective to the rest of their lives.

We became dissatisfied with the public school experience when our kids were in elementary school. We did what sort of investigation that we could of the middle and high schools. There was not nearly as much information available then as today. My tipping point consisted of two parts that were connected. I read that public school teachers sent their own kids to private school at a rate two to three times the general population; almost at that same time, I found out that one of the 6th grade teachers at the elementary school sent his kids to the private school two blocks away. I didn’t think I had to see a lot more data to make the final decision. I did not ask my 11 and 8 year old kids where they wanted to go to school. I felt it was my decision. The kids did choose the high schools they attended. The things that Kaylee mentioned were major considerations in the public vs. private school decision process.

For those of you with kids still in the public school system, you will never change the issues raised by Kaylee in the time that your kids are in school. It just isn’t going to happen. From my perspective, these things have eroded in the past 10 years. The ratio of counselors to students is worse now that before, currently in Simi about 1:500. The availability of college-prep classes is a big question mark. No one seemed to be able to guarantee that there are enough classes to meet the needs of the students (or students’ parents) who want to take them. Both of those problems were solved by attending private, college-prep schools. The ration of counselors to students was ~ 1:100, and all the classes were college-prep. But if a 4-year college is not in you own kids’ future, then you don’t need to consider private schools. It’s just all what your plan is.

I was surprised and excited that a student such as Kaylee recognized these problems. But she may not have been able to do much about it. She may have asked for college-prep classes, but if they were already full she was out of luck. She may have asked repeatedly to see a counselor, but if you do the math, each student can only get about an hour with a counselor each year. Private school may not have been an option for Kaylee and her family, I don’t know. I had hoped that Kaylee’s comments would have shocked those who think the local schools are “just fine.” If you have no plans for education beyond high school, you in the right place. Otherwise, you may want to start considering alternatives.

On another subject, I loved your question to Arleigh. You stopped him cold with question of relative pay scales. He answer has to be considered “non-responsive.”

Jerre,
If you think Kaylee represents every high school senior in Simi and California then you should stop blogging and go get a reality check. I took my 13 year old son to Royal's registration for incoming 9th graders the other night. They explained exactly what classes were needed for a High School Diploma, what classes were needed for the UC/CSU track, etc. They explained it, gave out copies and had it on an overhead. They then offered individual help to everyone there. I was at the Conejo Board meeting a couple weeks ago and they were honoring students who had been accepted to Harvard, etc. So not every student is having the same High School experience. You see Jerre, everyone is different. For example, I'm rational and your irrational most of the time because your view is clouded by a hatred for public schools.
Scott,
In terms of your question labor has a value placed on it by supply and demand. Also skill, education, etc. In regards to farm laborers I think there would be an artificial demand created by taking all the illegals out of California, to get people to do those jobs agriculture would have to dramatically increase wages. Because there is currently a supply of labor for those jobs, they are probably paying a fair rate based on the actual skill level of the job, the inflated rate to get workers would reflect the lack of laborers, not the true skill level of the job. While it is a physically demanding job, it is not a job that requires advanced degrees or specialized training. Also would you not rather have them working here, paying taxes here and keeping prices lower here, then have them working in other countries and exporting their cheaper farm goods here, which would increase our already record trade imbalance?

Scott,
New report out on NCLB shows that the cumulative FY02-FY06 gap between NCLB authorizations and appropriations totals 40.3 billion dollars. In Utah they have ordered local school officials to ignore NCLB when it conflicts with Utah's own school accountability system. Two Illinois school districts have passed up Title 1 funding rather than submit to NCLB sanctions. The non-profit group Communities for Quality Education reports that leaders in 47 states have now called for NCLB changes.

Arleigh:

Thanks for the info on No Child Left Behind. Howard Dean's DNC only puts the defecit at 15 billion, so even if the democrats could do anything, they'd be short by your estimates by 25 billion.

Scott

However, more money has been spent by the federal government in NCLB than under any other president. How come you never give Bush and the republican credit for increased funding over the Clinton years?

Are you saying you want less money and less accountability rather than more money and more accountability?

Scott

Arleigh:

Do you disagree with the NAACP in CT for sticking up for NCLB?

Scott

Scott,
If NCLB is so great, why do you think Bush felt compelled to pay $240,000 in taxpayer funds to a radio show host to push NCLB, otherwise known as paying for propaganda? Why do you think a republican stronghold like Utah is so anti-NCLB?The GAO called the payments illegal. Also, why don't we tie federal funding of police to crime reduction with a goal of 0% crime rate by 2014?

Scott,
On another topic, I've noticed a lot of letters to the editor by people who are angry that protestors at recent immigrant rallies are waving the Mexican flag. In a campaign appearance in 2004 President Bush was waving a Mexican flag as he was looking for votes from Mexican/Americans. Is it only okay for him to wave the Mexican flag? What do you think?

Arleigh:

Are you against federal ads such as "Parents, the anti-drug"? Do you think those are propaganda too?

I never said that NCLB was perfect, but it was a step in the right direction. A step the previous administration was too timid to take...

There is a great article in the LA Times this weekend on the President's position and his actions as Governor of Texas regarding Mexican Americans and illegal immigration. During a Governors convention there is a little known exchange between Bush and Pete Wilson where Bush basically told Wilson to his face, he was wrong. When he ran in 1998 and won almost 70% of voters in Texas, he had an ad where he waved the Mexican flag...

Whether people are right or wrong on there opinion is up for debate, but President Bush certainly holds a different position than most on both sides of the aisle.

Scott

Grasshopper,
I would not compare an ad on Parents keeping kids off drugs, to paying someone $240,000 to push NCLB on a radio talk show. The ad on parents say's who paid for it and why. The NCLB propaganda payments were hidden from the public. He never said, "Oh and by the way, the Bush people gave me $240,000 dollars of your taxpayer money for me to say good things about NCLB. Money that is now in my bank account and not in the classroom." What do you think of protestors waving the Mexican flag?

Arleigh, how can you possibly think that I hate public schools? Our household depends greatly on income from the public school system. My wife makes more than I do, for crying out loud!

I’m pleased to hear that incoming high school students are provided the information on what classes are needed to get into the CSU/UC schools. Now, I want to put a specific question to you – what is your expectation for your son for post-high school life? No further schooling, community college, a 4-year school, a UC school. Go on the record. With only 20% of the SVUSD kids graduating with the right classes to get into CSU/UC, your son faces an uphill battle. As a former teacher and now a union official, you know the system inside and out. When you call the school to get information, you can bet that someone will answer you ASAP.

I participate in this blog for a number of reasons. I have, what I feel, are important thoughts and facts to share with the other bloggers. Our family has experience with both public and private schools. We are past the K-12 experience. I like to raise questions for consideration by the others. I’m willing to bet that most parents think that if their kid graduates from high school they will be able to go on to CSU/UC. Now they know that is not true. Is it worth a few thousand dollars a year to make sure your kid has every option open to him/her after high school graduation? I think so. But not everyone does. I am always amused by the parents of high school seniors when they discover that the only option open to their kid is community college. Not that community college is a poor choice, but you might feel cheated if it is your only choice. I support public schools 100%, but like President Clinton, I chose private school for my children, because it was better, because I knew that all choices would be open to them.

Jerre,
My perception, based on your comments, is that you do not support public education. You claim above that private schools are better, yet, a recent study proves public schools are doing better at teaching students math. Public schools take everyone, they do not exclude anyone. Also on the 20% number in Simi it is actually closer to 34% because students are not given dual credit if they are taking a class at Moorpark. Also a large number of students take classes for a high school diploma, go to Moorpark and then to a UC or CSU. I think a lot of students choose to start at Community College because of the cost of UC/CSU schools (You may remember the huge cost increase Arnold gave college kids and parents). If private schools are so good why don't you encourage them to start doing API testing at all private schools so we can compare the scores?

Jerre:

What about the argument that private schools should do API testing? Wouldn't it be a good comparison for communities?

What do you think of Audra Strickland's proposal to give parents who send their kids to private school a tax break?

Scott

Scott,
I think Strickland is just trying to find a backdoor to vouchers. The people of California have voted they do not want vouchers. Should she not follow the will of the people?

Arleigh:

I think a voucher program would need significant buy-in from voters. So far, it has failed to convince us that it is a viable alternative.

The California Republican Assembly has argued for greater competition in education, yet I'm not sure a voucher program would create greater competition. I think a better model is to allow private schools, public schools, and charter schools to compete as they are now.

So far stats have shown that public test scores improve as a result of this competition model.

Below is an article from the Democratic Leadership Council, which tends to be to the right of the democratic party.

"Choice and competition in public schools stimulate innovation and ensure that parents have options when schools do not do an adequate job. Charter schools give parents just such an option. The option to send your child to one of these independent public schools cannot be underestimated, especially for parents whose only option would otherwise be to send their children to failing schools. Charter schools are independent public schools designed and operated by educators, parents, community leaders, educational entrepreneurs, and others. Unlike traditional public schools run by school boards, charter schools are given broad flexibilty to pursue their educational goals subject to a charter agreement with a state or local government entity responsible for monitoring their quality and integrity. This arrangement frees charter schools from many bureaucratic and regulatory requirements. In return, charters are held to the highest level of accountability: If not enough parents choose a school, it will not be able to operate, and if the performance of a charter school does not measure up to pre-set goals for achievement, it can be shut down by the authorities that issued the charter. In keeping with the public school responsbility to provide access to education for all children, charter schools may neither charge tuition nor discriminate in admissions. Charter schools impose no additional costs, as they are allocated the same amount of funding for public education because of the ability of individual charter schools to raise additional money or resources from private donors. Greater flexibility and freedom from bureaucratic regulations allow charter schools to follow innovative strategies, such as organizing as virtual charter schools (schools that operate completely online), military academies, or specialists in areas like art, technology, and government.

Education policy expert Ted Kolderie popularized the first charter school blueprint in a 1990 report for the Progressive Policy Institute. Former Minnesota State Sen. Ember Reichgott-Junge introduced and helped pass the first charter law in 1991. As a result, City Academy in St. Paul, Minn., became the first publicly chartered school, opening its doors in 1992. In the intervening years, 40 states and the District of Columbia have passed charter school legislation. Nationwide, there are nearly 3,400 schools serving close to 1 million children.

"Charter school parents and teachers create new approaches to meet student needs, and the public school system responds and benefits from their energetic innovation and strict accountability."
-- Former State Sen. Ember Reichgott-Junge, Minnesota

State leaders typically develop charter legislation, but local assistance and support is key to success for new charter schools, since both state and local leaders approve and actualize these schools. State and local players also get important federal assistance with capital costs and grants to help charter schools open.

One of the most comprehensive state charter school laws was passed in Delaware in 1995 under the leadership of then-Gov. Tom Carper. The law was unique in that it was the first to guarantee every parent a choice of public school. All Delaware children are now eligible to attend the growing number of charter schools, expanding the scope of choice beyond the student's neighborhood or district. Both local and state boards of education have the ability to grant three-year charters, conduct renewal reviews, and revoke charters. Delaware has a total of 13 charter schools."

I am a parent of a senior at Royal High School. I also have a son, who graduated from Royal, three years ago. Neither of my kids were ever placed in a class lower than CP. Also, neither of them ever had a problem seeing their counselor. It may have taken a day or two, after the request was put in, but they were always called within 48 hours. My son chose to attend Moorpark College. He decided to continue his volleyball experience at that school. It turned out to be an excellent decision, because he was recruited to play at a school in Missouri, which he is now enjoying. My daughter has always known that she would go directly to a university. She will be attending Chico State in the fall. As a parent, I made sure that the classes my kids were scheduled into, were the appropriate ones. Isn't that what a parent should be doing? It is wrong to put the total blame on the schools, if a student takes the wrong classes. Parents should be reviewing the materials that are sent home from the schools, regarding needed classes.

Overall, I feel that Royal did a very good job in preparing my kids for their future academic choices. My only complaint comes from decisions that were made by the previous administration, which were not always in the students' best interest. Luckily Royal is now being led by someone with a good head on his shoulders and who wants the best for all students.

The public school system worked for my family.

If private schools want to test for the API, that’s OK with me. I see no reason to force them into the testing. I think the reason most parents choose private schools is the higher level of academic standards. It’s a simple decision, really.

As for Michelle, as she pointed out, the public school system worked for her family and sports is paying for her son’s college education.

Scott,
If Strickland and Jerre want the taxpayers to pay for private school then all private schools should have to have API testing and face the same sanctions as public schools if their scores are not up to snuff!

Michelle and Arleigh,

I am not completely blaming my school for taking the wrong classes, I did ultimately make the decisions as to which classes I’d be taking. Yes, they made it quite clear in my 9th grade orientation what classes I’d be needing to go to a university, but the truth of the matter is that as a 13 year old, I was not thinking about college. I hadn't even given it a thought. I was excited about my new high school experiences. I started at Santa Susana High School, where I was put into C.P. Biology, decided it was too much work, and asked to be switched out. I don't believe they even called my parents to ask. I then transferred to Simi High, and by the time I got my schedule and brought it to their attention that I was supposed to be in Honors English, the classes were already full. When I signed up for A.P. English for my junior year, my councilor told me I wouldn't get in because I hadn't been in Honors English first. By the time I found out that I could’ve written an essay and spoken with the teacher, it was too late, and once again, the class was full. I'm not saying that I represent every student in public school. Far from that, I have friends who have been accepted to UCLA and NYU. I'm just saying that every student is different, and I don’t think that maybe 1 hour split up over the entire school year is enough time for a councillor to really do his or her job by each individual student

Jerre,

Is the twenty percent figure because students are denied classes, or they choose not to take them?

That would be the most important question, no?

Are you advocating we change the current policies so students schedules are chosen by the schools without parental help and guidance? Should the schools be able to force students to take the right classes?