One of the things I like best about you is that NEVER EVER had a hidden agenda. "What the world needs now is love sweet love..." no doubt but "Ventura would benefit with less, oh so much less, hidden agendas!
In a graduate level marketing class a couple of years ago. A fellow student wrote a paper on Wal-Mart. Their computer tracking system knew immediately what passed through the cash register thus what needed to be restocked that night. Wal-Mart could turn on a dime to respond to changing markets. If there was an unexpected cold spell in a part of the country that was normally hot while a heat wave was hitting even the opposite coast whose weather is normally mild, Wal-Mart make the adjustment, shipping product clear across the county in a matter of a day--complete with advertising and signs for the aisles! Thus, they sell products at a lower price than the smaller store but at what cost to the community in the long run if it's at the expense of bringing high paying jobs into the community? If you're tripping over "cheap, cheap, cheap...there's no attraction for higher end projects. Oh well, it's a complicated issue.

I have to agree that as far as marketing and sales, Wal-Mart must know what they are doing. What many people don't want to know is that Wal-Mart was also one of the first and largest suppliers of emergency supplies after Katrina hit. That gets buried because we all know Wal-Mart is evil.

People keep talking about bringing high paying jobs into the community. Define a high paying job. Is it the teachers that can't afford to live in Ventura? The fire/police employees that can't afford to live in Ventura? Maybe more lawyers is what we need in Ventura.

Face it. We need revenue. Are these 'high paying jobs' going to produce revenue for the city in the form of sales taxes? Or is going to be back door revenue because these people with 'high paying jobs' are going to shop at our stores and generate some sales tax.

What did Marie say in her blog about the SROs? You can pay a little now or a lot later....
Flip it and you get "You can make a lot now or a little later (sales tax)"

Segregation in commerce is not different that in race. Walmart is an American company and the largest private sector employer in our Country. People love to shop at Walmart. We buy most of our animal feed at Walmart and it is good quality. To say that all Walmart products are junk is not truthful. If you, Marie, want to shop uptown, then by all means do so. For those who want to shop at Walmart, let them.

I too am tired of the constant rhetoric by the Wal-Mart opponents that Wal-Mart is some sort of back country, stuck-in-the-50's corporation, lacking in progressive business practices.

Wal-Mart is one of the leading companies in America in terms of adjusting to customer needs and demands, providing an inviting and healthy work environment for its employees, and providing a range of discount shopping opportunities for the community.

The fact is there is a lot of people in this community who favor a Wal-Mart for the very reasons mentioned above. They are currently the silent majority, but I believe their voices will be heard when this ballot measure comes before the voters.

I am planning on scheduling a meeting with Wal-Mart executives when I am back east in a couple of weeks on business and, hopefully, can return with some good news.

Hey CAP, I never shopped at the KMart when it was there, either. If other folks like Wal-Mart, that's fine. I have not been impressed with the quality of some of the merchandise in the Oxnard store, especially their clothing. With two Targets so close, it seems redundant.

Free market rhetoric is becoming less and less popular and the reason is folks are getting sick of corporations like Walmart. Walmart is a terrible model of corporate behavior, one that has been documented over and over to be more a case of how to get corporate welfare in the form of subsidized help for workers from the coffers of government. How to get around paying employment taxes by making sure workers are classified as part-time so that they don't pay their fair share like all small businesses.
Then there is the issue of cheap goods and low prices and there again is another false claim by Walmart advertisements. They do have some very cheap goods but on the whole their prices are not better overall for most necessary goods. All this has been documented.
So please don't be fooled by their good neighbor policy to 'community leaders'. Ask them these hard questions: Why they can't just abide by the Victoria Corridor plan for a 100,000 square foot commercial space? Why can't Walmart agree to no food stuffs? I want to hear the answer to these questions.
Any business that decides to occupy that commercial space will pay the same local taxes to our city.

Nonsense "time for a change". Other than the retail clerks union, American families, in general, like to shop at Walmart. Ah shucks, so all their prices aren't the cheapest? Then shop somewhere else. The union pushed for the 100,000 sq.ft. knowing that Walmart's footprint is larger. How about no Von's over 30,000 sq.ft.? Walmart hires people who want to work at Walmart. People shop at Walmart who like to shop at Walmart. This isn't Moscow. If Walmart doesn't operate properly and doesn't have good products at a fair price, it would go broke. But it isn't, is it?

The union tried to keep Walmart out of Simi Valley, as example. The claim was that all drug stores and hardware stores would go broke. So what happened? New drug stores are opening in town with drive through windows and the hardware stores are doing fine. It was all a bunch of well orchestrated and highly financed union lies. Now a second Target is opening down the block from Walmart. There must be a reason that Walmart workers don't want to be unionized. Ask them sometime when shopping. I have and you wouldn't believe the answers given. No 1: "I like working at Walmart".

Marie, the Oxnard Walmart at The Rose has a costume department at a certain time of the year. Last year I went to a party dressed as a "buttman" and it was the best costume at the party. Next time you are shopping for a costume, try Walmart. You may be impressed. The price was good and I couldn't have made the costume for what I paid Walmart.

The new Target in Simi Valley is replacing the old Target.

Have you heard Walmart helps their employees fill out the paperwork for welfare benefits? Is that good or bad Cap?

I agree their prices are cheap and the selection is huge.

Firstly, if you want cheap, the 99cent store is just up the road from the proposed WalMart site. I've gone in there and enjoyed ridiculous bargains. Hose adapters for 99c that cost $14 in Lowes. OK, so it lasts less than a year ..... but a BUCK !?!? And every now and then they have decent deals on produce.

But I'm getting off the topic a bit and that is that we seem to be split on the WalMart issue ..... some people love 'em. Some people hate 'em. I don't see groups of the former collecting signatures outside Ralphs, I don't see people posting "YES to WalMart" signs in their front yards and so one group is certainly more vocal than the other, our dear friend and fearless blogger appears to be a fully paid-up and card carrying member of the Anti WalMart League - tee hee.

I think it's VERY creepy that WalMart got details of Marie's home address (and presumably phone number -- don't forget he promised a call)but I suppose that they wanted to contact her so found her info through tax rolls or voter regitsration records ... ?

Though not as cheap as 99c Stores WalMart IS very inexpensive on many items, same as Target, same as anywhere if you want to shop around. I choose not to shop at the one in Oxnard because it's inconvenient to get to PLUS it's in the Rose shopping precinct which I think is horrid plus it's just a freakin' zoo every time I've gone. Too many cars, too many people, it's just an awful shopping experience .... not that I find ANY shopping experience fun in particular.

Face it, many of us don't want to see the same car filled parking lot as we see in Oxnard, don't want the run down Nissans, the beaten up Astrowagons pouring their contents in to our nice middleclass town. "We" don't want to rub shoulders with heavily accented / non-English speaking folks, moreover if we want / don't object to that we can go to the Rose. How many of you antiWalMart protesters are more about keeping "undesirables" down in the Nard !

There is tons of negative press about WalMart because they're an easy target. When you go hunting in the jungle you shoot at the big elephants, right ? Alas, the good press is eclipsed by the negative. If people work there or not, if people shop there or not .... whatever. We're about to lose (have just lost) the Mervyns down on Telephone/Main so that's some tax dollars and jobs lost. I would have thought that THIS site would be better suited to WalMart to be honest (more freeway friendly too). So long as WalMart keep to the size restrictions that are imposed on the Victoria corridor why not let them in. The landlords at the Mervyns mall have probably already written to the "Evil Dubbya" to see if they want to move in there anyway so WalMart will be coming to our town eventually. Just keep all the development off my East end please ! ha !

Sorry to bust your bubble Cheerio, but the "new" target is not replacing the "old" target. Both will be up and running. The "new" Target on Tierra Rejada will be bigger, but not a "super" target, and there will be no garden section.

Marie,

I noticed in Bill Fulton's article in Sunday's Star he mentioned that the City is interested in trying to bring a Best Buy to town. So much for the argument that has been used against Wal-Mart in Ventura that there's already one right down the freeway.

BTW, I thought writers were restricted to one publication every 30 days in the Opinion section. I think Fulton's had 2 or 3 bites of the apple in the past 30 days. I am plan on sending Richard Larsen an e-mail on this.

I figure the only people who don't want a Walmart are those with businesses that want to keep the prices high or union members. If Walmart is allowed to build and no one likes the store, they won't shop there and the city would have had the income of the construction crew spent in their city. So what is the big deal? Are people not allowed to choose where to shop?

Flamo,

You really upset that your city council member is communicating too much with the public?

Barbra,

I didn't know the old Target is staying open. That is good news.

I don't favor banning all Walmarts but Barbra you do support the community, not the consumer choosing what goes into our town as far as adult businesses, yes? If there was enough clients to support a few strip clubs would you vote in favor of them?

Many people consider Walmart's business practices more repugnant than people taking off their clothes. Myself, I don't see the difference between target and Walmart as far as most of their business practices except the scale of them.

Brian,(what a loaded question)
Where did you ever get the idea that adult strip clubs were exempt from coming to Simi Valley? We actaully have a "special" zoning for them. Seems to me it is somewhere near the dump....see every classification of business has a zoning....I think this is appropriate, don't you?
WalMart? Target? what's that old saying, "to each his/her own"....

Not at all, Brian. I just feel that he should abide by the same rules as everybody else with regard to stating his opinions in the newspaper. As a letter writer, I'm only allowed to submit a letter to the editor once every 30 days.

I happen to disagree with Bill Fulton on a lot of issues. If he's allowed to yammer on about something as often as he likes and command a good chunk of the Opinion section in doing so, why shouldn't I have that same opportunity?

First off I'll say that I don't want a Wal-Mart in Ventura. For that matter, I don't want a Best-Buy either. Both stores are close enough in Oxnard.

And...sorry, the news is pretty much in. Wal-Mart is a particularly nasty company with a variety of predatory practices, from how they compete, their impact on a community and how the deal with employees..err "Associates". I put them a step below Starbucks, and a few steps above crack dealers.....but...

I'm no more inclined to shop at Wal-Mart than I
am at Big Lot's, or for that matter Macy's or a Nordstroms for that matter (what is it about Nordstroms that makes women swoon anyway?). I go into Wal-Mart or Big Lot's...I feel like I should clean the soles of my shoes you know?

Just not my kind of places I guess.

My opposition to Wal-Mart at the Victoria K-Mart location is much more pragmatic.

What the Victoria Corridor does NOT need is more traffic. At times it's nearly unbearable. Adding another high-sales volume merchant just exacerbates that problem.

Fulton and others espouse a "New Urbanism" with mixed housing and commerce/business.

This site is probably a good place to exercise that vision.

It all may soon become moot since the costs of transporting goods has skyrocketed as we all know, and Wal-Mart deals extensively with China.

That whole "Lower Prices" chant may well become the mantra of the past!

You're right, Dean. It's sort of creepy that they have all my personal information. But I think I know who gave it to them....

Mongo, the Star waived the 30-day waiting period for Camille Harris, too.

To my Simi Valley friends, thanks for posting!
:-)

I know it is not “your style� – but I think you could have least met with Wal-Mart for 30 minutes and had a civil discussion.

Or if that was too much for you to do, then maybe calling them directly to tell them you don’t want to meet. There is no reason to treat them the way you’re treating them. They did a nice thing by reaching out to members of the community like you. I would have reacted differently and I’m sure most others would have as well.

As you said, our city is facing difficult financial times – but you failed to mention that a lot of us our facing tough times also.

Having an affordable place to shop like Wal-Mart helps everyone – residents and the city. A store has to replace the abandoned Kmart. Let’s make the best of this opportunity.

One last thing- choice is an American right. If you want to choice to shop at Wal-Mart, you hat that right, but don’t force you choice onto others. That is not right.

Marie,

Do you know the basis for Camille and Fulton getting the 30-day waiting period waiver? I'd be interested to know if you have any insights. I've also e-mailed Rick Larsen asking him the same question.

Vicky, Barbra,

Walmart opponents, like strip club opponents, have used the power of zoning to restrict the people from being able to choose where to spend their money.

If you oppose people doing that to Walmart, do you support the same tactic to stop strip clubs?

Why not let the people decide?

They are both legal businesses that some of the local population supports and that some of the local population is against because of the business practices of the companies involved.

Well, Vicki, I doubt my opinion will hold even the slightest bit of sway. A Supercenter will not be allowed at the K-Mart site no matter what. The city's own General Plan will keep that from happening. They could, however, go in somewhere else. But I predict the Big Box initiative will get enough signatures to go on the ballot and it will pass. Wal-Mart knows this.

Now what they could do is go into the existing space in a 90,000-or-less-square-foot configuration and keep the grocery section to a minimum and the intiative couldn't touch them.

What are you upset about? That I wrote that Wal-Mart was contacting folks? That will be common enough knowledge soon.

I decided to be just really honest with my feelings. I would tell them exactly the same thing if I talked to them personally.

But yeah, I am a little perturbed about my personal information being gleaned by a multinational corporation.

Oops, just saw your post, Mongo.

I have no idea. Camille seems to get a lot of ink there, though.

I have not had one, let me repeat, one person tell me the want a strip club in Simi Valley..as a matter of fact, quite the opposite is true..but rather than totally deny them, we found a zone for them...lie I said, near the dump!

Perhaps Marie and her friends can afford to shop wherever they want, but for the majority of us, we are looking for a close by place to save us money and time - that is why we are interested in perhaps bringing a Wal Mart to Ventura.

Wal Mart would help our cash strapped city by taking an ugly vacant Kmart building and turning it in to a place for Venturans to shop.

Wal Mart is not the fanciest store in the world, and I’m sure that there are other companies we would prefer to put in place of the old Kmart than Wal Mart. But those other companies don’t help us with the basic issue of affordability. We are in horrible economic times, and the fact is Wal Mart can help us save money.

The fact that they were nice enough and respectful enough to send you a letter to meet with you says a lot about their character. I hope they won’t look at your response as a statement about the character of all Venturans, because let me assure you there are plenty of us who doesn’t mind having an affordable and nice place nearby like a Wal Mart to shop.

OK Barbra, brace yourself, I'd like a strip club in town. How about an evening with buddies for a bachelor's party? Is that so sordid to Simi Valley? In fact, I don't know anyone who doesn't want a strip club in Simi Valley. Is it really that much worse than one more corner strip center?

Enough with the Simi Valley strip club discussion already. This thread is supposed to be about Wal-Mart in Ventura.

I like what Mike Melby & Vicky Schiff had to say. They are representative of what a lot of Venturans are feeling about this issue. The bottom line is this whole initiative has been driven by a group of people who feel Ventura is too good for Wal-Mart. That is really twisted thinking in my view.

We live in a free market society. People should not have their shopping opportunities hijacked by a City planning document (the General Plan), which is supposed to provide "guidelines" for development, not Gestapo-like mandates on what types of stores can be built and what cannot. Nor should they be steamrolled by a group of elitists in the City who feel they know what's best for the rest of us.

I hope this ballot measure fails big-time. I know I will be doing my best to help defeat it.

Thanks for keeping us on track, Mongo.

I would say there is zero chance of our General Plan being amended to accommodate a Big Box on Victoria. I sat at a table last fall for two of our council candidates and what I kept hearing over and over from our citizens was that they did not want Wal-Mart.

But I do worry about this issue frightening businesses away from our city.

In fairness....as regard the comments regards to "print time' in the published VC Star...I sure got a LOT more than I thought I ever would in so confined a period of time.

Ok...kinda fun, but really I have to wonder if the Star changed some policy, or just opened up a specific channel of thought...

If you demand a WalMart and your main argument is that the free market should decide and not democracy then I would guess you would feel the same about having more strip clubs in your town.

Unless you want the "gestapo" zoning to stop it. But that would be a double standard.

Hopefully, you can see the very distinct differences between a strip club and a Wal-Mart.

Strip clubs have to adhere to certain zoning regulations related to proximity to schools, churches, and other non-compatible uses. They have to provide security and deal with a whole host of other regulations regarding alcohol consumption, screening activities from public view, etc.

Wal-Mart is a retail store. They have to abide by all the normal local planning and design standards and address such issues as traffic mitigation, parking, ingress/egress, etc. However, Wal-Mart should not be held to different standards than, say, Target, K-Mart, Best Buy, Costco, or any other "big box" retailer, just because they are "Wal-Mart." That is where I see this ballot measure being unfair, arbitrary, and capricious. It's definitely targeting Wal-Mart.

If Wal-Mart is such a horrible establishment, let the consumer decide this by not shopping there. If that happens, Wal-Mart will close down and move out of town. This seems like a fair way to approach it from my perspective.

Let me replace Walmart with Strip clubs and see how your paragraph reads.

If Strip clubs is such a horrible establishment, let the consumer decide this by not shopping there. If that happens, Strip Clubs will close down and move out of town. This seems like a fair way to approach it from my perspective.

You know full well some towns don't like strip clubs so they pass laws to make it so they cannot open there. They use democratic means to determine if a corporation harms or helps a community. Simi Valley spent years and a bunch of money fighting a strip club from opening by zoning laws.

Seems like you want the free market only when it backs you up.

It is very, very difficult to prohibit, or discourage, a strip club from opening up in a city via zoning regulations. Oxnard tried the same thing with the Spearmint Rhino (to no avail). They ended up passing a zoning ordinance that isolated it to an industrial area of the City, but it still opened and continues to thrive at this location.

Oxnard also tried to prevent an adult bookstore from coming into the City, but after months and months of expensive legal wrangling, they opened their doors in a prime location (right next to their financial district).

My point is that the free market system we live in has many laws designed specifically to protect legitimate businesses from discriminatory action or over-regulation by the government and I, for one, think this is a good thing.

Do I like strip clubs and adult bookstores coming into our communities? Absolutely not. Will I patronize these establishments? Of course not. But, do I support their right to do business in the community if they meet all the local requirements? You better believe it.

Hear Hear Mongo Flamo...very well said.

RE:Yes, Mr. Rios, we do need the sales tax dollars here

Is that what life is all about...sales' taxes....how about if we don't have any sales taxes...why should the government get a piece of everything??

How would we fund city, county, state services....?? Well, does anyone in government worry about how the taxpayers come up with sales tax money....I am 100% sure no one wants to pay sales' taxes....

Mongo, the current big box initiative, as worded, would prevent a Super Target and Super K-Mart from Ventura as well as a Wal-Mart. It would have prevented the new Target at the mall had it been in place.

Yes, they're targeting Wal-Mart, but other companies theoretically could get caught up in the net. (But are not likely to in that location.)

Oddly enough, it would not apply to discount wholesale, club-type operations such as Costco.

Marie:
"The current big box initiative, as worded, would prevent a Super Target and Super K-Mart from Ventura as well as a Wal-Mart. It would have prevented the new Target at the mall had it been in place."

And yet NO ONE COMPLAINED about the new Target. Where was the outrage? Where was the union? Where were the NIMBYs? Is it because Target pays more than minimum wage? Is it because Target isn't portrayed in the media as 'evil'? Only because there isn't a public face (Sam Walton) to put on Target that it doesn't get the same treatment. They sell the same 'Made in China' goods as Wal-Mart. They pay the same low wages as Wal-Mart. They offer the same limited benefits as Wal-Mart. Why? Because they are in business to make money and retail is notorious for paying low wages and offering little or no benefits. BUT.... there are plenty of people who are more than happy to work at all of these retail establishments.

It is clear to me (and anyone else with half a brain) that the ONLY store these people want to stop is Wal-Mart because it's 'evil'. Give me a break.

I am so glad that I did not return to your small town thinking after military service. Marie, your thinking and comments just cement by feelings that Ventura is still nothing more than an overpriced town filled with fools like you that think you are better and know what is best for people.

The worst kept secret is that Venturans don't shop in their own town. They shop in T.O. and Santa Barbara. We have cornered the market on cheap here with our second rate mall and crappy discount stores already. Small town thinking is what welcomes Walmart with wide open arms.

I completely disagree with "Shopper." Venturans don't all go to T.O. and Santa Barbara to shop. For one thing, high gas prices have forced us all to re-think our discreationary traveling decisions (like where to shop).

I actually think our mall could be better and I believe it will be once the economy turns around and new stores start coming in to the north side of the mall.

Some Venturans, like "Shopper", seem to have an elitist attitude about our city. That's the real definition of "small town thinking," in my opinion. To say that we shouldn't allow a Wal-Mart to come to our town because "we're Ventura," smacks of elitism and discriminates against the folks in this community who would appreciate more choices in terms of low-priced shopping opportunities.

I hope this initiative fails. It would be the worst thing in the world for the lower income people in our community.

I want a Walmart here in Ventura, anywhere . I love their cheap prices as I am on Soc. Security and can't afford to shop big price stores. I hate the mall. My friends all want a Walmart here also. I will be promoting a vote to allow it to be built. I think Oxnard Walmart is the worst on the west coast and I have driven back and forth to WA and been in many other Walmarts that are clean, organized and the cashiers are quite happy to be working there. Maybe Ventura's Walmart would be a pleasure to shop at. Give the people a choice.
Our town could use some new employment possibilities and the taxes we would pay.. NO not everyone wants to work for Walmart but they hire seniors, students, etc. I am sure they can work out the parking, traffic situations.

Why is it that people defending Walmart never address the real concerns people have over their business practices.

If the only conversation is about consumer choice I am going to replace WalMart with strip bar.

#################################################
I want a Strip Bar here in Ventura, anywhere . I love their cheap prices as I am on Soc. Security and can't afford to shop big price Strip Bars. I hate the mall. My friends all want a Strip Bar here also. I will be promoting a vote to allow it to be built. I think Oxnard's Strip Bar is the worst on the west coast and I have driven back and forth to WA and been in many other Strip Bars that are clean, organized and the cashiers are quite happy to be working there. Maybe Ventura's Strip Bar would be a pleasure to shop at. Give the people a choice.
Our town could use some new employment possibilities and the taxes we would pay.. NO not everyone wants to work for a Strip Bar but they hire seniors, students, etc. I am sure they can work out the parking, traffic situations.

##################################################

I will stop when Walmart proponents on this blog address the ethical reasons many are opposed to Walmart. Even if you think I should stop please read how funny that came out above. They hire seniors, lol.

I don't agree with them but I am tired of people having a double standard when they want consumers to choose and they belittle the democratic process and power over the influences corporations have in our communities. Walmart is not a person. They don't have a moral right to be here if they are causing damage to the community.

So stop lecturing to me about the free market ( with goods made in Communist China!) and I will stop mentioning Strip Clubs.

Pole Dancing,

You seriously need to get real, my friend. A strip club is the same thing as a Wal-Mart? Nnnnnooo.

Strip clubs have their own set of local requirements based on the type of "adult" business that they constitute. Wal-Mart is a friggin' family-oriented retail store. Please.....

On your comments on the free market, doesn't Target manufacture their goods in China too? What about K-Mart? What about Lowe's? What about the list goes on and on......?

Should we ban all of those stores from Ventura too? If not, why not?

Wal-Mart wants to build a 150,000 sq ft Super Center on Victoria Avenue. This would be three times as big as the Ralph's market accross the street on Victoria. Such a Super-Center would unleash a tsunami of traffic in that part of Ventura, while bringing no benefit to the city.

Whenever this issue comes up, some people say that a Wal-Mart would generate badly needed sales tax money for Ventura.

This Wal-Mart promise of increased sales tax money for Ventura is a myth.

With regard to non-taxable food items, which would comprise a large chunk of Wal-Mart sales, the city would not receive one cent of sales tax, but decent paying jobs at Von's, Ralph's and Albertson's would be threatened. It is not in Ventura's interest to replace higher paying jobs with lower paying jobs.

Even when it comes to taxable items, it is important to remember that there are only a certain amount of retail dollars available to be spent. Ventura has an abundance of existing retail stores, but it is not a rapidly growing city. This means that money spent at a Ventura Wal-Mart is money that would have been spent at one of our existing retail stores. Essentially, a Ventura Wal-Mart would cannabalize our existing businesses, rather than generating new sales tax money. This is good for Wal-Mart, but bad for Ventura.

Don't fall for the Wal-Mart sales tax myth. Ventura deserves better than Wal-Mart.

"Wal-Mart wants to build a 150,000 sq ft Super Center on Victoria Avenue. This would be three times as big as the Ralph's market accross the street on Victoria."

The Ralph's had no need to leave it's original location excpet to make more money. The amount of traffic it created was horrendous. But because it's not Wal-Mart it's ok?

"Such a Super-Center would unleash a tsunami of traffic in that part of Ventura, while bringing no benefit to the city."

No benefit to the city? How about jobs. How about choices on where to spend money.

"Whenever this issue comes up, some people say that a Wal-Mart would generate badly needed sales tax money for Ventura. This Wal-Mart promise of increased sales tax money for Ventura is a myth."

Prove it. If Ventura residents are going to Oxnard to shop at Wal-Mart because they can get more for their dollar, then doesn't it make sense that they would shop at the Ventura Wal-Mart instead - keeping/generating sales tax revenue?

"With regard to non-taxable food items, which would comprise a large chunk of Wal-Mart sales, the city would not receive one cent of sales tax, but decent paying jobs at Von's, Ralph's and Albertson's would be threatened. It is not in Ventura's interest to replace higher paying jobs with lower paying jobs."

Let's re-word this the way you all mean it:
"decent paying UNION jobs at Von's, Ralph's and Albertson's would be threatened". You think that it is possible that Wal-Mart may be able to sell groceries cheaper because they don't have to pay for those decent paying UNION jobs? You think I'd rather pay $4/gallon for milk instead of $5/gallon?

"Even when it comes to taxable items, it is important to remember that there are only a certain amount of retail dollars available to be spent. Ventura has an abundance of existing retail stores, but it is not a rapidly growing city."

And if those retail dollars are going across the river to Oxnard, wouldn't it make sense to try and stop that flow?

"This means that money spent at a Ventura Wal-Mart is money that would have been spent at one of our existing retail stores."

Or in another city that has cheaper prices.

"Essentially, a Ventura Wal-Mart would cannabalize our existing businesses, rather than generating new sales tax money. This is good for Wal-Mart, but bad for Ventura."

Here's the old "Wal-Mart is Evil because it runs out Mom & Pop stores" argument.

Tell me that the 2nd Target isn't doing the same thing. Tell me that the Mom & Pop stores can't benefit by specializing. Tell me that Lowes ran the local hardware stores out of town. You can't. Last time I checked, Avenue Hardware is still in business. San Luis Paints is still in business. Steve's plumbing is still in business. How come Wal-Mart will canabalize local business but Lowes won't?

"Don't fall for the Wal-Mart sales tax myth. Ventura deserves better than Wal-Mart."

Like? I don't hear about IKEA wanting to come to Ventura. I don't hear about Best Buy wanting to come to Ventura. I don't hear about any other retailer wanting to come to Ventura. I do see plenty of EMPTY buildings throughout Ventura that can be used for any number of the mythical "high paying jobs".

The people will speak in November 2009. You may all be surprised when the ballots are counted.

Or.... Wal-Mart could tell you all to go to hell and open up their store in the existing building. Then it would be moot. And I'd laugh all the way to the bank with the money I save by shopping there.

John Doe

Great comments! Wal-Mart would be a positive addition to Ventura, no doubt about it. All the mythology is coming from the anti-Wal-Mart crowd, including none other than Das Williams (Santa Barbara City Councilman and one of the leaders of C.A.U.S.E.). He isn't even from Ventura, nor are many of his cohorts with C.A.U.S.E., they have the audacity to come here and promote their group's socialist agenda and tell us what types of stores we should have in our City? Please...

Here's another big myth the anti-Wal-Mart union activists will tell you that's absolute baloney: It will worsen the affordable housing problem. Huh? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Like the people who come to work at the new Wal-Mart store in Ventura will suddenly find themselves lacking housing. These are folks who already live in the community. Some are students, some are seniors, some are people on their way to their next job. Remember, most of these jobs are entry level retail positions. They are certainly not jobs for people who will be suddenly looking for housing in Ventura.

Oh come on, Mongo. You always overstate things. CAUSE is no more a Socialist organization than you are a John Birch Society leader.

They exist to promote the rights of workers, just like the Chamber exists to promote the rights of business owners, the NRA exists to promote the rights of gun owners, etc.

These groups are all part of our wonderful but chaotic system of Democracy. Let's just let the people vote on this issue and accept what they have to say.

Marie,

I'm certainly fine with letting the voters decide the issue. I do, however, see the tide turning towards favoring Wal-Mart coming in, or it may also be a reaction to the repulsiveness of the ballot initiative.

Do you think it will get that far, or do you think Wal-Mart will move ahead with their plans to move into the K-Mart building? I guess that's the $10,000 question.

Do you think Wal-Mart is locked into the 150K- square-foot store, or would they be willing to settle for a smaller, 100K-square-foot facility, which would comply with the City's Victoria corridor development guidelines? Another big question.

Personally, I think a Supercenter is a moot issue. As I wrote before, our General Plan pretty much forbids Big Box development in the Victoria Corridor. I don't see a groundswell of folks clamoring for an amendment. But maybe that's what they were pushing for in the letter I received.

Wal-Mart could move into the existing K-Mart building, paint a few walls and set up shop any time they want. The initiative couldn't touch them and it would fit into our City's guidelines for that area (around 90,000 square feet).

They can't occupy the adjacent space where the liquor store and furniture store operated without triggering much more extensive City review and control.

Adding a grocery section to the store would not generate any more tax dollars for the city, anyway.

I am sort of amused by the responses I have gotten here. I thought my post was pretty much a fence-sitting position.

If it goes in, I won't shop there, just like I don't eat at fast food outlets or watch "American Idol." But others have a right to participate.

Marie,

Woud you happen to have Aaron Rios's contact information (mailing, or e-mail address)? I'd like to give him some feedback on the proposed store. I tried to find him on Wal-Mart's corporate web site, but could only locate the Bentonville folks. Thanks.

Mike

Email me your correct email address and I will send it on. I don't think it would be proper to post it here.

Marie,

My e-mail is: dodgers4life13@yahoo.com

Thanks

I agree with Mongo Gibson. Walmart will be a positive for Ventura. If people in Ventura don't want a Walmart, then don't shop at it and it will close. Isn't that the American way?

This city is so screwed up...I'll just keep driving to Oxnard and give them my hard earned money in stores like Wal-mart, Costco, Best buy and Home Depot, to name a few... Isn't it funny how I see Oxnard's infrastructure improving and Ventura's falling apart...I can pull the asphalt off the streets here in Pierpont with my bare hands, The beaches are dirty and getting worse... When are the citizens of Ventura going to realize Tax dollars are what runs this city... And yes, Food items do not create tax dollars, but I don't go to Wal-mart for just food... And anyone who says that Wal-mart sells cheap junk, Funny how I can go to Wal-mart and find the same product at Target for 20% more in cost... Wake up!!!

Edward J. Lacey is wrong it would bring new tax dollars to Ventura. My whole family shops at Wal-mart in Oxnard but live in Ojai. I would rather go to Ventura and shop than go to Oxnard. Heck I wish they would bring one closer to Ojai. I buy all of my dickies work pants from there. I also buy Lipton tea and all my stuff to take care of my vehicles from there. Oh and guess what not any of it is from China ( I looked while I was typing this). Heck most of it was made in Mexico so maybe you are saying you don't want to support our Mexican friends who live here with us.

I personally do not like Wal-Mart because it does not sell quality cheese products. I like Swiss and French cheese but all I have ever found there is American.

Sorry, but again people are refusing to address the moral criticisms of WalMart or the actual economic impact. So here it goes again.

"I agree with Gibson. A Stripclub will be a positive for Ventura. If people in Ventura don't want a Stripclub, then don't shop at it and it will close. Isn't that the American way?"

Feel free to debate the economic impact of a store that helps their employees apply for welfare. I am glad John mentioned something besides the free market.

Boy, talk about putting words in someone's mouth. I never saw Mongo, or anyone else for that matter, argue that a strip club would be good for Ventura. This is an hysterical, smoke-screen position that is intended to mask the real issue, which is Wal-Mart's right, as a legitimate business entity, to come into Ventura, as long as it complies with all the local reg's. A strip club is a whole separate discussion.

Mongo is right. Wal-Mart has more positives than negatives for Ventura and shouldn't be used as a poster boy for bad business practices by a bunch of out-of-town rabble-rousers that don't have the slightest clue as to what might be good for the City of Ventura. They only know they have a very clear agenda to block any and all Wal-Marts, wherever they are proposed. That is anti-American, in my opinion!

By Mongo Flamo on August 5, 2008 3:21 PM

"Do I like strip clubs and adult bookstores coming into our communities? Absolutely not. Will I patronize these establishments? Of course not. But, do I support their right to do business in the community if they meet all the local requirements? You better believe it."

Sounds like the anti-Wal-Mart people met the local requirements for an election. And it sounds like it is exactly what you were advocating.

I have no problem with the election, or letting the voters decide the issue. That's our democratic process at work and I totally support it.

I'm just offering another perspective, which, as you can see by the posts on this thread, many other people in the community feel the same way. I hope the initiative goes down to defeat and I will be working very diligently to share my views on it as the measure progresses. People need a choice and they will have it in November 2009.

Strip Clubs are legal businesses with customers that support them. Why not allow the free market choose if Ventura needs them? They of course will follow local laws.

Strippers! keeps playing the same tune. Time to change the CD...

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WalMart! Keeps playing the same tune. Time to change the CD...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What do you think of WalMart helping employees qualify for welfare benefits by providing help with the paperwork?

The prices are low because someone else is paying.

Strippers!,

That's a bunch of hogwash! You must have just watched that anti-Wal-Mart DVD where they propagate such nonsense, or have been reading all the hysterical union proganda that's out there.

I'm sure you could find instances where this has happened, in certain extremely depressed areas in the deep South, for example. But, it is definitely not a common practice of Wal-Mart's and I defy you to show me where it has happened on a larger scale, or where you'll find it in the Wal-Mart managers' training handbook.

When Georgia examined its state-funded health care rolls, it found over 10,000 children of Wal-Mart employees. California estimates the welfare costs for Wal-Mart workers at $89 million annually. And one congressional study says the feds’ welfare cost per store is $420,000 a year. Totaled out, Wal-Mart is estimated to gobble up $1.5 billion in welfare a year.

This isn’t about a free market. It’s about cheapskates basing their profitability on someone else's picking up the tab.

Always screw the employees. Always.

Look at this link http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/walmart_3a.cfm

Towards the end you can download a Walmart official form to help apply for welfare. So I guess it was in their books!

I just got back from a vacation in Southern California and noticed that the small artistic beach community of Laguna Niguel has a new Wla-Mart. So I typed in Laguna Niguel Wal Mart into Google and couldn't find any negative press regarding this store. Granted I didn't dig too deeply at mid-night, but if it didn't show up on the first set of google results it may not be there.

My point is: Does the small, artistic beach community of Laguna Niguel know something you all don't?

I just got back from a vacation in Southern California and noticed that the small artistic beach community of Laguna Niguel has a new Wla-Mart. So I typed in Laguna Niguel Wal Mart into Google and couldn't find any negative press regarding this store. Granted I didn't dig too deeply at mid-night, but if it didn't show up on the first set of google results it may not be there.

My point is: Does the small, artistic beach community of Laguna Niguel know something you all don't?

Right on, John Doe. Glad you're back. We missed your well-reasoned comments on this issue.

Regarding Strippers! wild, unsubstantiated claims that Wal-Mart is bleeding the welfare system dry, what about all the taxpayer funds that illegal immigrants bleed from the system? The Federation for American Immigration Reform published a comprehensive study in 2004 that showed an $8.8 billion net loss to the State of California as a result of illegal immigration. That was 4 years ago - imagine what the costs are today! Another, more recent, nonpartisan study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) bears this out.

If I had my druthers, I would much rather be supporting those hear legally and trying to make a decent living than those who illegally broke into this country and are helping suck the system dry.

Typical right wing response. If you're losing an argument blame illegal immigrants. If that doesn't work, blame a Clinton.

Hey Skippy,

Whadup? I recognize your tone.

Nobody's losing an argument here, my friend. I'm simply challenging false information and hyped-up claims. The things I do best.

I've stripped at the Spearmint Rhino in Oxnard for two years and shop at Walmart. I pay taxes and work my behind off to be able to support a decent lifestyle. I don't see any analogy between a Walmart in a community and a Walmart. I think it is completely nuts. Walmart sells a rather inexpensive product in most cases while Spearmint Rhino sells a rather expensive product in most cases. Spearmint Rhino sells extras, while Walmart usually doesn't. Both, however, have happy endings as I have never been depressed when leaving a Walmart and most everyone leaving Spearmint Rhino has a smile on his face.

Blogs are like the old chat rooms, but with a time delay. Neither really accomplishes anything and both are, for the most part, a waste of time.

Enjoy shopping at Walmart and come for a visit at Spearmint Rhino.

Walmart offers dancing polls, costumes, wooden flooring, hair clips and bands, cold drinks, mixed nuts, popcorn, bar stools and just about anything else a stripper or customer would need.

Spearmint Rhino is offering a $5.00 Walmart gift certificate with each paid admission after 7:00 P.M.

All this because of this blog. Don't ever let anyone say that a blog doesn't matter.

More good reasons to patronize both Wal-Mart and the Spearmint Rhino.

I agree 100%. Both offer quality products at reasonable prices. While not offering family entertainment in one case, each provides a friendly atmosphere and a work place in which employees are treated with respect and benefits commensurate with the individual effort expended. These are both American establishments of the highest quality.

God Bless America and God Bless Walmart and Spearmint Rhino.

I agree both offer legal products that stimulate consumers.

But both should be regulated by democracy as far as what legal business practices that can use and where they should be located.

I don't want a WalMart on Main Street Ventura and I don't want a strip club in a residential area.

Stripper!,

Are you even paying attention here? Wal-Mart is proposed for Victoria Avenue, not Main Street.

You better climb down off the pole for a minute and read a newspaper.

Lil' Gibson is me name,
and strippin' is me game.
I love shoppin at Walmart,
as everyone knows;
and when I'm a dancin'
my great booty shows.

Put in on Main St. or Victoria Ave.,
the place dont' matter, so long as we have,
that Walmart for me to get all me shoes,
then come to the Spearmint Rhino,
and drink our booze.

I'll lap dance and jiggle,
I'll wrap around that pole,
At closing we can go have some fun;
Then we'll head back to Walmart,
when we are warmed by the sun.

I do read the newspaper, but you must not be reading my posts.

All I have argued is that the people of Ventura, not the free market, should decide where a WalMart might go.

Communities have rights to determine which companies are in their towns.

No, you're wrong. The people of Ventura shouldn't decide if a Wal-Mart should come to town or not. The City has planning, building, and environmental regulations that address location and community impact issues already. That's the whole point of having a General Plan and land use regulations.

Ultimately though, the people will decide if Wal-Mart should stay in town based on whether they shop there or not. If they don't shop there, it will close down and the NIMBY's will be proven right. If they do shop there and the store thrives, then that proves that the people in the community wanted a Wal-Mart after all. That's what the free market at work.

How would you feel if I started a group that opposed a child care facility that wanted to come to town because I hate screaming kids? Wouldn't that be viewed as a tad bit discriminatory? That's how I feel about the Stop Wal-Mart Coalition.

Wow, "I'm a Stripper," you really should refrain from poetry.

I think I've posted this twice now, but I'll say it again. The issue is moot. Our city's own citizen-generated General Plan and upcoming Victoria Corridor Plan won't let a SuperCenter come in on Victoria. It can go elsewhere, such as next to the Auto Mall, though. But Wal-Mart doesn't want to be there.

There really is no reason for the anti-Wal-Mart initiative. Piecemealing won't happen, either, under the city's plans. It would take an amendment to the General Plan to change this. That won't happen.

They can take over the existing 90,000-square-foot spot and nothing can stop them, really. But I won't shop there, just like I don't go to the various 99 Cent Stores, Big Lots, or Smart & Final and rarely walked into K-Mart. I'm a loyal Target, Vons and Trader Joe's shopper.

I think Wal-Mart is going to submit revised plans to the City before the measure even goes to the voters. And Marie is right. The City cannot legally turn them down if they don't go over 100,000 square feet.

All of those planning methods and documents were done by citizens, staff, and city leaders through a democratic process.

I didn't say there needs to be a vote on this project. I said using democratic tools to determine what types of businesses locate where are a legitimate tool.

The city, and not the free market, chooses what is appropriate in Ventura.

No, it's actually the free market putting forward a development proposal, with the City Council (who represent the citizenry) imposing some guidelines and restrictions to protect the public good. So, the free market leads the charge and the regulatory process (via the City Council) tempers the project a bit to make sure no one is unduly harmed in the process.

What you guys miss is the TRUE cost of Wal-Mart. Manufacturing jobs have left this country by the droves directly due to Wal-Mart's aggressive pricing policy (forcing manufacturers to lower prices once WM has a leveraged market share). They then go to China and use sweatshop labor we would never tolerate over here. Aren't we proud?

Then what does China do with the Billions we are now draining fom our economy and sending over their? They buy SUV'S and GASOLINE! 4 bucks a gallon included in your "low price" of Wal-Mart??? Of course not.

That doesn't even begin to discuss the millions in costs to the infrastructure of the locl town because Wal Marts business model is NOT to serve the "local community" but rather suck in traffic from surrounding communities wearing our roads, increasing our traffic, and depleting our emergency recourses.

Wal-Mart doesn't offer "low costs", they are just real good at hiding the REAL costs.

These anti-Wal-Mart folks are just trying hard to create a monster that doesn't exist. Let Wal-Mart come in to Ventura and let the people decide if it should stay with their shopping dollars, not a few malcontented NIMBY's.

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These anti-stripper folks are just trying hard to create a monster that doesn't exist. Let Strip Clubs come in to Ventura and let the people decide if it should stay with their dollar bills as tips, not a few malcontented NIMBY's.

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There are many reasons to oppose a WalMart. If you keep refusing to discuss them I will keep stripping your posts.

You're not stripping anything from me, buddy. All you're doing is continuing to show your ignorance, misunderstanding, and misrepresentation of the issues.

You're the exact reason Wal-Mart should (and will) come to Ventura. You're shamelessly trying to shout down the opposition to this stupid, unwise ballot measure, that, as Marie stated so accurately, is a moot issue anyway because Wal-Mart will be approved way before this thing goes to the voters.

So, continue with your lame posts and lamer attempts at poetry, so we can continue to have a good chuckle at your expense.

True Cost,

"Wal-Mart doesn't offer 'low costs', they are just real good at hiding the REAL costs."

No, I think they really DO offer low costs.

Furthermore, I think that some people who work at Wal-Mart really do earn low wages. But they are not enslaved: they can choose to work someplace else or not at all.

And I think that the people who shop at Wal-Mart sometimes go OUT OF THEIR WAY to shop there because they WANT TO -- not because they don't have any choice. It's not like Cuba, where certain people get coupons/currency and others get squat.

Yes, it is true that Wal-Marts take-up space that could otherwise be filled/controlled by some other retailer... but, as it's been said, it's not for the City nor the citizens to decide *who* gets to run a business and *where*. There are laws and zoning in place to protect the public interest, and incentives can be used to attract certain kinds of businesses. But beyond that, *discriminating against* a person or group who wants to open a legitimate business would be inproper/illegal.

You have a point, though, and I think you're doing a good job of using this forum to call attention to the DEVESTASTION that has occurred in some communities when Wal-Mart comes to town.

Yes, often Wal-Mart beats the pants off the competition. And that's sad for Mom and Pop Proprietor (and their progeny, and their loyal customers). But hey, nobody is forcing them to quit. They're free to stay in business and compete and work harder and provide jobs, etc., despite Wal-Mart.

To say that Wal-Mart is "hiding" the true costs is just not true. They're good at what they do. They give customers what they want (a huge selection at low prices). They give back to the community (and the community typically responds gushingly).

I say, if Wal-Mart is so EVIL why not create a better alternative (alternative retailer, employer, source of philanthropic funds, etc.) rather than whipping up a mob? Create a better store, and consumers will reward you. Offer better jobs. Support local charities. Wal-Mart is not the problem: it's us.