I saw somewhere a good line which sums this up: Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor

Marie,

The very next night John McCain went out and spoke in favor of community service. It was a nasty attack on people that serve their communities in a variety of ways.

Thanks, Marie, for your thoughts.

Remember, the U.S. President's job is simply just one BIG Public Service Position! I look for maturity and strong leadership in the canditate I'll vote for. Michelle Obama isn't actually running, so her husband gets my vote!
Our community Rocks, all of us! Include everyone, then see how you fit yourself into the community big picture! Have you found your place yet?

America would still be an English colony if not for community organizers.

Well there goes the vote of the HUGE demographic of people who are community organizers. I think that is going to swing all 50 states to Obama now. McCain should just throw in the towel, it's over.

I feel privileged to live a great Community where volunteerism and community service is respected and honored. Ventura is made up of these selfless individuals who help build a stronger society and neighborhood, by working together side by side !

If you're not contributing, you're not partcipating....

The point that everyone's missing, of course, is that being a community organizer, although a great attribute and commendable quality, does not, by itself, qualify Barack Obama to be the next President. He doesn't have much going for him beyond that, except being able to deliver a great speech - via teleprompter.

"being a community organizer, although a great attribute and commendable quality, does not, by itself, qualify Barack Obama to be the next President."

Right, that's why it's a good thing that he also taught constitutional law at U.Chicago for 12 years, and was a state senator for one of the most populous states of the Union 8 years, before being a U.S. Senator for 3 years.

Thank you Marie. The divisive and rancorous tone of both R. Guiliani and Sarah Palin has no place in American democracy and is nothing short of shameful. They have no right to call themselves "leaders." They sell hateful smear by denigrating the tremendous work of communities and community organizers. Our children need to be encouraged to work at a grass roots level for positive change. I think often of Margaret Mead's quote - "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
Thank you Barack Obama for coming forward, for making change and for bringing, once again, the hope and inspiration this country so desperately needs.

Byron York has a great article on "Community Organizers," check the link.

A piece from the article sums it up:

Community organizing is most identified with the left-wing Chicago activist Saul Alinsky (1909-72), who pretty much defined the profession. In his classic book, Rules for Radicals, Alinsky wrote that a successful organizer should be “an abrasive agent to rub raw the resentments of the people of the community; to fan latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expressions.� Once such hostilities were “whipped up to a fighting pitch,�

Too bad Mother Teresa isn’t running on the Democratic ticket because John McCain and Sarah Palin could sneer and say that Nobel Laureates are only ‘community activists’. Then they could go on to detail how Mother Teresa’s selfless dedication has no value in the life of a community. The point being that it wouldn’t matter who the Democrat was because they would be using the exact same script. I understand Sarah called Barack Obama ‘Sambo’ and Senator Clinton ‘the bitch’ in public while guffawing to a group of friends. So this would be in character for Ms Palin.

But no matter how vindictive--and make no mistake because tasteless lies and personal attacks plow new ground in the history of dirty politics--these extreme politicians can’t prove any of them. As a matter of fact, isn’t this the very tactic that Rove used to defeat John McCain in 2000? Yep, McCain had fathered a black child. You certainly remember that lie?

Like Obama, I agree that the American people are aware that a chant of “drill baby drill� is tantamount to ‘kill baby kill’—kill any chance our country has of taking the lead on energy and gas sustainability, kill new green business with Luddite fervor, kill the any international respect for us as an intelligent democracy, as a country who takes care of its own citizens, as a multi-cultural peaceful society, as a secular society that respects human and civil rights and allows many different belief systems to coexist, as a world peacemaker . Oops, that one will take at least four years to rebuild and one could go on and on….

Marie...I could not agree more with your remarks about "community organizers".

They come of all types and backgrounds. I may or may not agree with their issues, but they are often the ground roots of democracy in action.

They exemplify the difference of our political society and system.

Whatever the issue, whatever the political bent, they are citizens in action.

To mock them, in a way, is to mock true citizen democracy.

Palin and Guiliani may have meant to target Obama, but they cast a wide net over many Americans who serve.

The point of this whole discussion is being taken in a completely different direction by a couple of overzealous bloggers. Who in their right mind could effectively argue that Mother Theresa would be a good candidate for President of the United States? This is ludicrous. The whole point of the argument is ludicrous.

Mother Theresa was a magnificent human being and humanitarian who made huge a contribution during her long, illustrious life in advancing the cause of the poor and downtrodden. She is to be commended and applauded for the great things she has done for human kind. But, she is no more qualified to be President than my Uncle Billy.

Barack Obama, while an inspiring speaker and commendable social activist, has nowhere near the long list of lifetime achievements and demonstrated leadership capacity as John McCain. That, my friends, is a fact!

Oh, please, "voter."

Barack Obama was first hired by churches to help the residents of that area get back on their feet. It's no different than the work supported by Bush's faith-based initiative.

It's amazing that Bush's speech writers, who I have read wrote Palin's speech as well, would zing someone for doing this kind of work.

I think maybe they didn't do their homework. But that hardly surprises me.

Voter,

Do you really think the Catholic Churches that were working with him and that hired him were trying to do anything except help poor people? You should apologize for insulting Catholics.

Oh please let's stop the petty bickering....

The reality of the issue is; John McCain in all likehood, wouldn't live out his term, if elected, age and health issues.

Does a neophyte politician like Sarah Palin have the experience to lead our Country ?

Doubtful.....

Community organizer isn't enough says that Mother Teresa wouldn't be qualified for Pres of the US. True, but someone who has actually served the people by being a grass roots activist, a lawyer, and a US Senator certainly has the chops to give it a try. Remember that quite a few of our presidents were senators for only a couple of years, and went on to become effective Presidents. Abraham Lincoln was one!
And Obama delivered one of the finest, most honest speeches I have ever heard. Teleprompter notwithstanding, he has ideas, plans and guts. His was not a belittling put down of his opponents.
Teacha47

Please, community, realize that the experience Obama has is valuable and worthwhile
as anything McCain has done. He has had as much experience in the Senate as Abraham Lincoln did.

Teacha

Obama’s been a U.S. senator for four years, and was a Illinois State Senator for seven years. He graduated from Columbia University and Harvard Law School, and also taught Constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School until he became a U.S. Senator. He has far more experience and education than Lincoln did.

OK, so now let's start comparing Obama to Abraham Lincoln. Can Mohatma Gandhi be far behind?

For one thing, Lincoln served as President almost 150 years ago - different times, different leadership requirements.

The fact remains that he's a half-term Senator and community organizer. McCain has him beat from the git go. Sarah Palin has more executive level leadership, for godsakes!

I guess we could start comparing Sarah to Annie Oakley instead.

This entry was about the trashing of public service that happened at the Republican National Convention. I know many people don't want to defend it so they want to talk about other issues, but feel free to either admit or deny that public service was ridiculed at the convention.

I really don't think Republicans understand the concept of community service.

As far as executive level experience, McCain has none.

Barack Obama has NEVER claimed that being a community organizer qualified him for President.

What he does claim is that it tells us about his strength of character. Just as McCain's war biography tells us about his strength of character. Neither should be belittled and neither qualifies either of them to be President.

To demean community organizers and public service is thoroughly insulting because it demeans every volunteer at your local Boys & Girls Club, YMCA, church, free clinic, non-profit organization, senior center, special needs centers, hospital, get out the vote drive... the list goes on.

For those in both parties who herald the word "change" - working in your local community is where it begins. Bemoaning the lack of change on blogs is not going to get the change you desire. Being active, beginning with your local community, is how it begins.

Like Marie, I respect both these men and I don't mistake party rhetoric for policy or fact. But I do recognize that Obama has never sought to belittle McCain's character. But that IS exactly what Palin did to Obama.

Her scrunched nose sarcasm and teleprompter cheerleading was effective with the party faithful. And while she should be respected for rising from hockey mom to PTA President to small town mayor (which does not qualify her to be VP) to State Governor; it does not hide the fact that the first important decision the late great John McCain made was to pander to women (and insult their intelligence) while offering bait to the Republican far right wing after spending a year telling us all how important "experience" was.

You can dress it up in talk of Maverickism all you want - but it was clever marketing and pandering at its best - or worst - depending on your point of view.

...and the Evangelical wing of the Republican party appears to be eating it up. But they are not alone. Current polling indicates she is currently the flavor of the month.

But I digress...

There are MANY men and women from all parties - and no party affiliation - who are serious community activists and organizers for causes like those I have mentioned above. They come from all walks of life and all religious backgrounds.

Some serve their country in the military and some serve their country in their communities. Each is trying to make it a better country and a better world. They do the work that career politicians are always asking someone else to do.

JohnBoy....you said it all !

Well done, basta and bravo !

Marie, you had the courage to put forth a great discussion. The hot Alaskan babe stuck her sexy foot in her mouth with her chop to Obama's public service. This gal doesn't have the common sense to run her PTA meeting, yet alone our Nation.

Well, you guys have succeeded in twisting Palin's convention comments on Obama's lack of experience into a wholesale bash on community activism. That wasn't the point of her comment at all. It was simply to highlight Obama's background against the position he is running for - President of the United States of America.

Sarah Palin is running for Vice-President. John McCain is running for President. Remember?

Let's keep the arguments focused, shall we?

Community Organizer Isn't Enough, you sound like my friend Mongo. Palin said what Palin believes. Obama just doesn't stand up to the high level of achievement that Palin has attained, according to our tundra friend. Palin shouts a good game, but her track record in Alaska has been anything but grand. She is against earmarks, but was one of the Country's staunchest proponents. She is against the bridge to nowhere, but championed it. She was for government reform, but couldn't put together any comprehensive reform. She pontificates the highest family values, but falls short as a teacher for her own family. It looks to me Mongo, that Palin is just a loud voice with some pretty strange ideas and a very checkered history in government service.

Surf's up Marie. Keep up the good work. Hope to share my board with you one morning soon.

To CMOIE -

As I CLEARLY stated - community activism does not qualify you for President and Mayor of Wassili does not qualify you for VP and DEFINITELY not President. Fair enough?

It was Palin who demeaned these people while touting a somewhat faulty record of her own. THAT is the issue. She did so to take the focus of of the "experience" issue that on which John McCain himself has been campaigning.

If you like her because of her stance of abortion, taxes, or her current stance on earmarks - and you don't care that she is "Palin Come Lately" - that's fine But please do not pretend she has some glamorous and blistering resume that pales Obama's.

She showed a curious lack of character by pummeling the character of all who do community work and public service.

community and public servers, without pay!!! organizers, are "whole" people.

First of all, let's be clear what a community organizer actually is. There are "community volunteers" and "community activists."

Community volunteers are those who help out at the schools, the local Boys' & Girls' Club, at their church, or in various charitable organizations and events, etc. These folks are the heart and soul of our communities and

Community activists (which I think more accurately describes Obama's background on the south side of Chicago) are those who foment unrest in communities or rally people around a certain cause or issue. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton immediately come to mind (neither of which is qualified to be President, in my humble opinion).

Moondoggie,

You seem to reflect the liberal media's reaction to Sarah Palin's selection as McCain's running mate. They seem to be falling over each other to find fault in this courageous woman. You've obviously been spending too much time perusing the tabloid racks at your local supermarket.

Yep, that drilling sound you here in Alaska is the media drilling for dirt.

Typical race-baiting BS equating black Obama to black Jackson and black Sharpton and the use of "activist" as a way to suggest agitation. His ideology and philosophy, in print - long before his Presidential run - puts him at odds with these two divisive misguided shadows of the turbulent past. That is like equating John McCain to Strom Thurmond or David Duke. It is irrational and entirely incorrect.

There is absolutely no rational basis for this line of argument any more than there is in believing Obama is truly a Muslim out to take over the U.S.

You truly do not know what an "organizer" is, as they are involved with all of the local non-profits and churches and government agencies (oops - dirty word) in order to help people to help themselves. His reputation in South Chicago was stellar - without the racist rhetoric, admonishments and victimization of Sharpton or Jackson. He was their connection to the "heart and soul" of the community.

It is only in internet urban legends and Limbaugh fantasies where he has somehow become the 60s Black Panther leader you attempt to invent.

It is truly amazing what images fear and indoctrinated bias can create in your mind.

Let us go back to what was actually said:

"I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities." -- Sarah Palin

"On the other hand, you have a resume from a gifted man with an Ivy League education. He worked as a community organizer. What? He worked -- I said -- I said, OK, OK, maybe this is the first problem on the resume." -- Rudy Guiliani

So "responsible" Sarah Palin's legacy as mayor was to build a hockey rink in her little town and to do so raised sales taxes through a special referendum and got her town involved in an eminent domain lawsuit that cost taxpayers even more.

In a very different world far away, Barack Obama took a job to work with local churches organizing job training and other programs for poor and working-class residents of Altgeld Gardens, a public housing project in Chicago.

How could you possibly knock this? It's deplorable to do so. There's no excuse for it.

And COIE, I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that the Star calls me a "Community Activist," out of a lack of a better word for what I do. When I am not raising kids and being an employee, I fill every minute of my free time with volunteer work for many organizations and causes. (I think chronic volunteer is a better term for what I do.) But I am not even in the same league as many others I know and honor with this blog entry.

I suggest that all community activists who are involved with Republican politics take some time off right now because their work is not valued.

Barack Obama was working with local churches to help get people health care, job training, and a hand up to get back on their feet. Those churches included Catholic Churches. In your rush to throw race bait you shouldn't slime the Catholic Church. There is nothing to show he ever "agitated" anything in Chicago. Step back, breath, and apologize to the many fine faith based groups and Churches you ridiculed before you throw racial taunts again.

The only racial agitator around these parts I know of are you!

I stand by my previous comments. Stoking the flames of discontent in a community that is ripe for agitation and unrest is no great feat. Obama made a fine science of it when she he was in Chicago.

I stand by my previous comments. You know absolutely nothing of Obama's work so you offer race-baiting lies.

How ironic that your party constantly decries the government providing help to people. Yet when an individual gets involved on his own to perform exactly the kind of personal involvement in the community that you claim is necessary - you call it agitation.

The only agitation here is your own. Reactionary agitation by shamelessly stoking the flames of racial fear to a predominantly conservative white community.

You offer no proof that Barack Obama and the churches of Chicago, including Catholic Churches did anything wrong. If it wasn't for social justice why do you think the Catholic Churches got involved. Do you think they were trying to cause social strife or were they trying to lift people up?

You should apologize for attacking the honor of the Catholic Church and its dedication to helping the poor. It is sad you would attack churches if it fit your ideological demands. Is nothing sacred?

Community organizers have much to be proud of and attempts to besmirch their characters with racial remarks only reinforce the notion that the blogger three entries above is an out-of-touch elitist. Our hockey mom VP nominee has likely spent little time with the poor as well, isolated from the world as she is up in her little hamlet of snowmobilers.

I liken Obama's work to Jane Addams, the first American woman to be award the Nobel Peace Prize. She practiced community organizing in the Settlement Houses she created for the poor and working class immigrants of Chicago.

Marie, I totally agree with everything in your article except the parts about the Republican National Convention and what was said there. I was going to suggest that somebody actual *watch the video* rather than get all offended and spread strife.

But then you actually quoted Palin and Giuliani. Watch the video, then re-read your comments.

Did ya catch the part about Obama running for President of the United States? That's kinda important to the context! Did ya catch their repeated references to *executive experience*? That's kinda the whole premise!

Do your friends in community service give a rip about executive experience? Are they running for President?

By omitting the context (intentionally or not) this thread is now focused on a straw issue which could foment ill-will among one broad cross-section of the country (volunteers) against another broad section of the country (Republicans) based on half-truths. How can that be helpful?

It's what they're accusing Obama of doing. Don't fall for it! Call it what it is.

Obama isn't protected from unfair accusations & jokes, and he isn't immune from scrutiny. But he does himself honor and honors his opponents by listening to their words and debating the issues.

There's enough outrageous stuff going on to make everybody furious if they're paying attention: we don't need to make stuff up. ;-)

You are quick to label me and Sarah Palin as out-of-touch elitists, but let's look at your guy for a moment.

His background is as a "community organizer/agitator" and law professor before he entered politics. These two positions may qualify him for philosopher or writer, but certainly not President of the United States. He also made a comment during his campaign that the folks in economically depressed areas of the country (like Pennsylvania) "cling to their guns and religion." I mean, can we get any more "elitist" than that?

By comparison, Sarah Palin has lived a very normal, down-to-earth existence, struggling as a mother of five to keep up with all the day-to-day demands and responsibilities of family life, dealing with difficult personal and financial issues (including a pregnant teenage daughter), while serving her State and local government as a courageous and independent leader and reformer.

One of the reasons Sarah Palin is getting so much attention and interest from the public, besides her rapid, meteoric rise to prominence and visibility, is that many people can actually relate to her on a personal level.

Can the same be said about Barack Obama?

FYI:
According to the U.S. Constitution these are the requirements to be the President of the United States of America:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

I don't see any where in the text that requires any 'experience'. I don't see anything in the text that requires prior service. All I see is that a candidate be:
** A native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both citizens of the U.S.)
**Be at least 35 years of age
**Live in the United States for at least 14 years

I believe that all candidates have the requirements to be President.

Robert,

Does John McCain have executive experience? No. If that's all you want in a president then maybe Sarah Palin should be at the top of the ticket. She was mayor of a very small town and then governor for 20 months.

I don't want to get in a tit-for-tat over experience. In my mind Obama is more than qualified and my only quibble with him was a lack of depth in foreign policy. Biden brings that in spades.

I think it's fair to say both Palin and Guiliani were trying to diminish his record by diminishing his public service experience. They both zeroed in on that and it leads me to believe that they thought it was the weak link.

But that's exactly what drew me to him, which was the point I was trying to make. He spent time with people who who had no money, no power and no voice and tried to give them hope. That's commendable and gives him a broader understanding of the problems facing Americans.

If somebody had written a speech for me to read with those comments, I would have rejected it immediately.

And the fact that neither one of them did tells me something very powerful about their character.

I concede. Sarah Palin will fit into Washington better than Barack Obama. She is already lying about her accomplishments like a typical Washington insider:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/11/kaye.palin.honest.cnn

(CNN) Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama will come together tonight, the anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks, for a TIME-sponsored forum on national service. It is part of a summit where nearly 500 national will "celebrate the power and potential of citizen service" and lay out a plan to address "America's greatest social challenges."

Hmmm - Citizen Service? You mean McCain supports agitators as well?

I can relate to Barack Obama just fine. More so than your moose hunter. I see a not so subtle racial theme building here in your posts, Community Organizer Isn't Enough.

Tell us again why you can't relate to Obama?

Yeah right, Vote Democrat. You're quick to scream racism because you have no logical argument against what I've been saying.

My point is, and has always been, that the guy is too inexperienced to be President. Nobody has been able to effectively counter my argument thus far, but I'm patient.

You keep calling him an "agitator" with no proof at all except that he is black. Then you bring up Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? I think it is clear you are a race baiting smear artist.

Why not answer the question about why Catholic Churches would be involved in such a thing?

Ronald Reagan had a much lesser education, was an actor and had only 8 years in office compared to Obama's Harvard law degree, community service, teaching work and 11 years in higher office.

George W. Bush had a lesser education, a string of failed businesses and only 8 years in elected office.

Ronald Reagan had 8 years experience governing the largest state in the union with the seventh largest economy in the world. George W. Bush had 8 years governing the second largest state in the union. Both, major executive level jobs, with enormous responsibilities.

Barack Obama's does a little community organizing and taught law, not much else. Sorry, he doesn't measure up - again.

I am reposting this message so that we can think about why you refuse to answer the charges in it.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

You keep calling him an "agitator" with no proof at all except that he is black. Then you bring up Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? I think it is clear you are a race baiting smear artist.

Why not answer the question about why Catholic Churches would be involved in such a thing?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Obama had seven years in the Illinois state legislature and four years in the Senate. I bet he knows what the "Bush Doctrine" is. Sarah Palin didn't when Charlie Gibson asked her tonight. Did you watch it?

He had to explain it to her.

Sorry, Sarah, this is no place for on-the-job training. If McCain wins I will pray every single night for his good health.

Interesting post Marie, you've just used the exact quote that Joe Biden used to point out that Obama wasn't qualified to be President.

For once in his life Joe Biden was right!

The difference being that Biden is now Obama's running mate. I believe they compliment each other well and either one can run our country with experience they already have on a national level.

Sarah Palin has no experience on the national or international level. She brings absolutely nothing to the ticket. That really showed in the interview last night. She was picked solely to appease the far right and Christian voters, who weren't so wild about McCain. She wasn't even McCain's first choice. That disappoints me.

Not one of my Republican acquaintances is happy with her selection. I bet you wish he would've done better, too. But you won't admit it here.

Q -- Community Organizer isn't going to answer you. Quit trying. He isn't interested in doing anything but flamethrowing.

Community Organizer Isn't Enough says:
"My point is, and has always been, that the guy is too inexperienced to be President. Nobody has been able to effectively counter my argument thus far, but I'm patient."

According to the U.S. Constitution these are the requirements to be the President of the United States of America:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

I don't see any where in the text that requires any 'experience'. I don't see anything in the text that requires prior service.

I believe that all candidates have the requirements to be President.

So 'Community Organizer Isn't Enough', why do you keep insisting that one candidate doesn't meet your requirements?

I'll be patient as well

John Doe,

Can we get real for just a second here? Your recitation of the minimum qualifications for President of the U.S. is akin to saying the minimum qualifications for a physician is the ability to dangle a stethoscope around his/her neck.

When was the last time we elected a President who simply met the minimum qualifications? The answer is never.

Of course we are going to compare Candidate A's applicable qualifications and experience to those of Candidate B. That's the case in the evaluation of any candidate's suitablity for a job.

Can you not defend Obama's lack of experience as compared to McCain's, or are you seriously presenting this as your defense of Obama.

Experience?
Here's McCain's:
48 years sucking at the government tit.
22 years in the military blindly following orders and not making decisions.
26 years in the senate creating roadblocks, issuing pork and missing budgets.

How about Palin's 'experience' in family values. She preaches abstinence training, but can't get her daughter to practice what mommy is preaching. Then praises her daughter for making a 'decision'. Isn't it funny that Palin doesn't really think women should have the right to make a decision?

My point is that experience is not a requirement and that it is very possible that the best man has less 'experience' than the other candidate.

Toe-may-toe
Toe-mah-toe

John Doe,

Each of your references to McCain's experience can be looked at in its more positive dimension:

22 years in the military, learning the intricacies of national defense & intelligence, as well as holding high levels of leadership responsibilities commanding naval air forces.

26 years in the U.S. Senate, chairing the Senate Commerce Committee and ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, among other committee appointments (significant government leadership positions) where he fought pork barrel spending and the use of earmarks by Congressional representatives, as well as many other "against the grain" actions while serving in the Senate.

BTW, since you've chosen to play the pregnant daughter card, what about Obama's Mom being pregnant with him at the age of 18, out of wedlock? Did you forget about that little skeleton in the closet of your revered community organizer?

"Community Organizer," that was rock bottom vile. Obama's parents were married and divorced when he was two.

Vote Democrat (if you dare),

Sorry to shatter your illusions, but Obama's parents were married after his mother found out she was pregnant, which means he was conceived out of wedlock.

His Dad left when he was 2-years-old. Hardly the "Leave It To Beaver" existence you so pointedly criticize Palin's family for not exemplifying.

I guess the truth hurts, doesn't it?

My...so much anger and so little time!

All this talk of "experience".

Has anyone really defined what that means?? How it is relevant, given factors like judgment and temperment? This seems important to me at least.

Ok, Barack, yes I'd agree, very little executive experience, and only some legislative. How to balance that with working with the working and sub-working classes (we'll leave the semi-hysterical "agitator" out of it..have expected to here the word "uppity" used). I think being a law scholar counts for something too. Maybe more cerebral than Presidents were used to..especially lately.

Alright, McCain....certainly life experiences abundantly. His POW years surely contribute as does his legislative time. But what about being an apparently proud "anchorman" at the Naval Academy. Does being the latest Naval McCain mean he could horse around and still graduate? And the military thing. A fighter jock is a commendable role, but how does it compare to Eisenhower being the General that he was? Or say Wes Clark or any number of other generals who, after blowing everything up, had to govern and supervise the rebuilding? Kennedy at least commmanded a boat, lives depended on him in split second deciscions. And honestly, the big claim to fame is McCain got shot down. Not good for a pilot.

Biden? Well, short on Executive but lots of legislative experience, maybe more than McCain. He seem more a man of the people than McCain or Obama....I mean the man rides the train to and from work every day! A bit dry though.

Palin...hmm...ok, some Executive, though not without questions about effectiveness. Knowledge of national affairs..well, maybe not judging from the Charlie Rose interview, but she seems smart and could learn.hopefully quickly. For sure she comes across as tough, and innuendo at least paints her as pretty ruthless...the "Sarah Barracuda" thing. Do we want someone clearly capable of just "feeling witch" with her finger on the nuclear trigger? She maybe the first potential President in over 100 years to seriously consider secession. None of the others have experience with that! Being a mother...that is unique amongst the 4, and surely has to count for something.

Bottom line for me, experience is what you make of it. I just think before we through the "E" word around we ought to think about what it is, what it means, and what application it may have in the future.

Nobody said Obama's early childhood was perfect. He said himself his father's absence helped define him. But the way COIE phrased it made it sound like they were never married.

The daughter's pregnancy is only an issue insofar as Palin is in a policy making role and pushes abstinence education and it clearly has not worked for her own family.

What can we expect from a racist who slimed the Catholic Church and refuses to apologize?

I assume you were referring to COIE with that remark?? As I said he is not interested in polite conversation, only flaming. Typical right wing hate monger.

Great comments, Tom!

G, you're getting all offended over stuff that you made up in your head. And now it's sunk to this -- you're calling COIE a racist who slimed the Catholic Church? Can we pls not go there?

[[...Why not answer the question about why Catholic Churches would be involved in such a thing?...]]

What does that have to do with anything? It's like no matter what s/he says, you're going to try to turn this into a religious/racial spitting match. At the risk making things worse, lemme attempt to defuse this and steer back to Tom's comments.

Is it possible for someone to serve God and a political cause at the same time? Of course.

It doesn't really matter what the cause, how noble the cause, who's involved in the cause, or what race you or they are, etc. Community organizers/workers/volunteers can also have political motives, right?

Will you allow that's possible for someone to choose to get involved in "community service" for selfish or political reasons? Not that *anyone* would EVER do such a thing!! (ahem) But let's just say that it's possible.

You and I and Marie and all our so-called "agitator" friends can work side-by-side doing God's work with *purely* moral and benevolent motives... and someone can come along and *join* the cause and/or *use us* for their political purposes. So what? Does that taint us or our work?

Jesus accused the head priests of vile corruption. Was he insulting their forefathers and *all* those in the Jewish church at the time? Of course not. So let it go, G!

I want go back the original premise of this article that the Republican comments somehow "offended those in community service everywhere."

If you'll forgive me for saying so, it's a bunch of hooey. There's nothing there -- it's an orchestrated fight which -- to COIE's point -- just gets people *agitated* (ahem). And it drags the public conversation down to the level of... oh, you know what I mean -- birth control, barnyard cosmetics and such.

There are better things to talk about. C'mon, folks, read _The Audacity of Hope_.

I think what you are trying to say without coming out and actually saying it is that you think I cooked this all up to score political points for my team.

But honestly, Robert, I was genuinely offended by the comments I referred to. Obama was obviously being ridiculed for doing something that I really value. I had not decided on my team until Obama picked Biden and McCain picked Palin. That was the decisive moment for me.

Blogs are all about expressing opinion. We've done that here and not always on the level that I would prefer but we're humans and humans are flawed creatures, aren't they?

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughtful posts and thank you for contributing.

Robert,

Barack Obama was smeared as a racial agitator that worked to create animosity like Jesse jackson or Al Sharpton.

The truth is he worked with charities and churches including the Catholic Church.

I am sorry if you didn't read that or didn't understand it but Catholics should be offended to be told that their Church was being used to divide people by a racial agitator.

It is a real simple question if you read The Audacity of Hope: Do you think Barack Obama was inner city agitator who used the Catholic Church and other churches to create animosity between people?

That should be an easy call.

T.,

If you choose to interpret the political motives behind Barack Obama's community activism to include "using" the Catholic Church as a vehicle to get there, well then so be it. You seem to have reached your own conclusions on this already.

Obama is also strongly pro-abortion. This conflicts with the Catholic Church's teachings as well. If you're a practicting Catholic, are you not outraged at that?

'Twas you and only you who assigned agitator status to Obama. His work for the Catholic churches was purely humanitarian.

He only did work for the Catholic Church charities to pad his resume for future elective office. Same is true for the other organizations that benefited from his community activist work.

Absolutely false.

That would be like saying John McCain arranged to get shot down and taken as a POW so it would look good when he ran for office.

Or Sarah Palin took a job as a sportscaster to practice her chops in front of cameras so she would do better when she ran for VP.

COIE:
"He only did work for the Catholic Church charities to pad his resume for future elective office. Same is true for the other organizations that benefited from his community activist work."

So.... by saying that it appears that you agree that Obama is a cagey politician, and since he is a cagey politician he must have the experience (you claim he needs) to lead the United States of America.

Also, you don't think that every officer going through West Point or Annapolis doesn't think the same thing? This will be good if I want to be president someday? Of course they do. Conversly, McCain only served in the military "to pad his resume for future elective office"

Glad you finally see the light!

Being a Community Organizer or Agitator, which ever name either side would like to use, shouldn’t be a reason to discredit someone from being the President. Communities should be “agitated� sometimes to improve the quality of life. Heck, not just communities but our own Country needs to be agitated right now to get off the track we’re on and back to a Nation we can be proud of and the rest of the World respects. I even consider John McCain an agitator because he’s willing to stir it up in his own party; I think this is a good thing. In the same breath, because someone is a Governor with “Executive experience� it doesn’t mean they are a good leader or fit to be the President or Vice President of the United States. I was actually somewhat refreshed by this election process and the American people because I believe both parties brought to the table two good Presidential candidates. That being said, I’m a life long registered Republican and I am a little disappointed in McCain’s selection of a running mate. I get the sense the American people are being treated like the audience for American Idol and the parties are trying to stir it up and play a popularity card. It’s insulting and embarrassing. However, I’m willing to watch this all play-out (I recommend the same for all of you) and see where it goes as I really know nothing about Palin and this is a critical election. If my initial reaction to the Palin nomination turns out to be true, then it does cause me to question McCains ability to make critical decisions. I wonder what kind of cabinet he would surround himself with. An interesting note I discovered when reading McCain’s wikipedia page, his hair actually turned white when he was a POW in Vietnam 40 YEARS AGO due to the unfortunate torture and stress that he endured. Now he’s a candidate for the most stressful position in the World? While he is obviously a man of stamina and courage, we would be fooling ourselves to believe he has a good chance of making it through a first term at his age. After I give Sarah Palin a chance during this campaign, I owe it to my country to decide in my heart of hearts if she’s fit to be President. My impression right now is that she’s nothing more than an attack dog and to me that’s not very Presidential. Remember, we do not Pledge Allegiance to our political parties but to our Nation.

Q,

COIE said: "Community activists (which I think more accurately describes Obama's background on the south side of Chicago) are those who foment unrest in communities or rally people around a certain cause or issue. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton immediately come to mind ..."

...and then JohnBoy said "Typical race-baiting BS equating black Obama to black Jackson and black Sharpton..."

...then you said that COIE slimed the Catholic Church. To be fair, it was JohnBoy who characterized the comments as racist.

Then later you said "You keep calling him an 'agitator' with no proof at all except that he is black."

And then Vote Democrat said to COIE "I see a not so subtle racial theme building here in your posts"

See, I don't think that COIE was race-baiting at all. I don't know who s/he is -- maybe you do. Maybe that's just what s/he was doing. But just reading this thread it looks like everyone else is PROJECTING the ugliness on him/her. Maybe he could have found some better examples of people who foment unrest in the South Side of Chicago, like ... um... well, let's see... um... GEE, I CAN'T THINK OF ANY OTHER EXAMPLES except those! Can you?

Read the posts again -- you keep repeating "racial agitator" when COIE never used those words... and then you said there's no proof that Obama's an agitator "except that he's black." Did COIE say that Obama's an agitator because he's black? No -- that was you (or JohnBoy).

It's not fair to label people as racist just because they don't like your candidate, who happens to be mixed-race (Ahem).

No, I don't think that Obama was trying to create "animosity between people." Quite the opposite -- he was trying to foment unrest among people who are generally "stuck" and need to take action to change their situation. As VC Vote says, agitation is not necessarily bad. But folk on this thread are very quick to label it "racial."

And yes, I do think that Obama used the church -- not to stir-up hate but to stir-up voters. He himself said in his book -- in so many words (I can find the reference) -- that "we" (people of the same political persuasion) can work with people in the church to achieve our political ends -- to do good things in our country and oppose the Religious Right (the political opposition in the church).

It is hard to understand you through your hood.

You have be saying he was a racial agitator like Al Sharpton and Jesse jackson.

He worked with Catholic Churches as a community organizer helping people that fell on hard times. Nothing he actually did or that The Church did has been either disputed or even explained by you.

I am interested why you think the Catholic Church would be complicit with dividing people based off of race. I know it isn't from any actual evidence.

You should stop peddling your smears against black people, community organizers, and churches without evidence. It reveals more about you than anyone or anything else.

I understand you haven't read from this same person before but the rest of us are assuming it is a frequent poster here.

My comments were directed at him.

He said clearly:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Community activists (which I think more accurately describes Obama's background on the south side of Chicago) are those who foment unrest in communities or rally people around a certain cause or issue. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton immediately come to mind (neither of which is qualified to be President, in my humble opinion).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

He started an argument without another side to argue with! I don't see anyone saying being a community organizer as being enough to be president.

If you don't see the racist undertone of saying he creates social unrest in an innercity like Al Sharpton I don't know if you are paying attention.

Barack Obama worked with churches, community groups, and politicians to bring people together, not to create innercity unrest.

Are you saying he was creating unrest? I know the Catholic Church and it wouldn't be dividing people to create racial strife.

That is a disgusting smear from people that want to tear down anything needed to attempt to gain political power.

Thanks, Robert, for injecting a little reason into the debate.

It seems whenever you raise these kinds of issues where reasonable people can reasonably disagree, there is a certain element who want to take the discussion in a completely different direction by playing the race card.

I am not a racist, nor do any of my previous comments reflect any racist beliefs or ideas. I am simply taking a different position than most of the other folks who have posted on this thread; therefore, ipso facto, I must be a racist.

I stand by my original comment, which simply pointed out that community activism, while, in and of itself, can be a very good thing and provide some positive benefits for a community, does not, by itself, qualify a person to hold the highest office in the land and, perhaps, the most powerful position in the world.

If we can get back to discussing this point, maybe we can get somewhere, huh?

Maybe seeing the screen through your hood is hard to do but you said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Community activists (which I think more accurately describes Obama's background on the south side of Chicago) are those who foment unrest in communities or rally people around a certain cause or issue. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton immediately come to mind (neither of which is qualified to be President, in my humble opinion).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You compared him to two notorious activists who are the targets of critics because of their racially divisive actions but you don't know how race got interjected into this discussion?

I don't see anyone that is arguing community organizing is enough. Leave the straw man in the fields and come back to the real debate. We aren't saying Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson is qualified. We aren't saying that being a community organizer is enough. Stop imagining things.

Why do you think the Catholic Church would be involved in creating unrest in our communities?

What did Barack Obama ever do as an organizer to create unrest?

Stop playing the victim card and pretending you didn't mean to equate the three.

Al Sharpton has actually created unrest. Barack Obama worked with churches, including the Catholic Church, to unite people that needed help.

Traditional "community oreganizers" are to be commended. Nobody here, however, has mentioned an influential nationwide organization known as ACORN [" Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now"], an ultra-left anti-capitalist organization closely associated with Obama but whose profile is kept low nationally. ACORN concentrates on local politics. It promotes "living wage" legislation in 80 cities. It cons bank institutions into contributing to its activities - like Jesse Jackson would do. It utilizes bullying tactics. strong ties with teachers' unions - the same as Obama has. ACORN is under inditement in many cities as we speak.

Bullying tactics? Show me an example from Barack Obama's community organizing days where he was using bullying tactics?

I don't see churches in Chicago, including Catholic Churches going for that type of community organizing.

If you are saying an unrelated group does these things, then clarify yourself and stop connecting unrelated things.

Stop with your divisive attempts to connect Barack Obama to other controversial black men. It isn't accurate and you aren't using in facts to back it up.

I think Juandeveras is right on the money when he associates Barack Obama with the likes of the Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farakhan. Although Obama is very careful about disassociating himself from these guys over certain issues and practices, he also has embraced them and their ideas and philosophies when it's worked to his advantage.

He was clearly associated with Farakhan, for example, when he worked on the South Side of Chicago, having worked with him on several youth-oriented programs. Of course, when this issue of Farakhan's militancy, black supremacy ideas, and anti-Semitism was raised, he started distancing himself from the guy immediately. He did the exact same thing most recently with Wright.

Question: What do Barack Obama, Jeremiah Wright, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farakhan all have in common?

Give it up. He isn't a racial street agitator like Sharpton.

The Catholic Church wouldn't have been involved in such nonsense.

To: By A!

Suggest you google ACORN, read the literature and report back.

Why did you used to work for them?

You offer no proof that Barack Obama ever used racially divisive tactics when he worked with churches in Chicago, including the Catholic Church.

Do you really think the Catholic Church would be a part of racially divisive community organizing?

Why not offer facts, instead of conspiracy sounded guilt by association tactics.

To: By A!

Read today's WSJ op-ed page 1/2 page piece:" Obama and Ayers Pushed Radicalism on Schools". Obama from 1995-99 led the CAC ( Chicago Annenburg Challenge ) which "poured over "$100,000,000.00 into the hands of community organizers". This is not mentioned in his two biographies. The CAC was founded by Bill Ayers, Obama's " friend in the neighborhood". In 1995 Obama was made CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD.

Why? Who asks them to organize..they do it for their own ego....

Obama's friend bill ayers was co-founder of the violent Weathermen

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)

Marie,

Thanks for writing your thoughts about the VP debate on my blog.

http://blogs.venturacountystar.com/dennert/archives/2008/10/guest-blog-w-ma.html#comments