My spouse just received a 10% pay cut that the Governor implemented on State Workers to help with the State budgetary problems. I am guessing the Ventura City and County officials may feel hypocritical implementing similar type cuts in Staff pay after they recently provided many with significant pay and benefit increases. However, it is time for them to help sacrifice also. Marie, who would be responsible for implementing something that?

It would be great if the state legislature set an example and cut back their own pay.

Marie Says:
"To the NIMBYs who would like to micromanage all new private infill projects that could bring sales tax revenue and jobs into our city: you are short sighted and cutting yourselves off at the knees. We can balance quality-of-life issues and still generate revenue."

Does this include the City Government that told two different business (that were ready to go, providing jobs and sales tax revenue) that 'we' didn't want their kind here?

Seems to me that maybe, just maybe, the city council needs to look at ALL ways of generating revenue. And their pie-in-the-sky dreams of a 'friendly, walkable city' needs re-thinking.

Marie Says:
"Targeted are arts and historic programs including ArtWalks and both street fairs"

Seems to me that if these were run correctly that they would generate income for the city. I can't believe that the city isn't charging vendors at this event. Maybe start charging the vendors more for the privledge of selling their wares in our fine city to a captive audience.

Yes, the street fairs charge vendors. The ArtWalks are staff-intensive and don't generate a lot of revenue. We need staff to carry these programs off. They don't operate in a vacuum. About 80% of city expenses are staff time. Maintenance and staffing of The Olivas Adobe and Albinger are included in historic programs.

Maintaining that pool on the east end is very expensive.

A Modest Proposal for "all kinds of new ways of generating revenue"( apologies to Jon. Swift ):
( a two-way interaction involving responsibility between citizens and city staff )
1. Rick Cole sets an example by reducing his salary ( and retirement benefits ) by 25% immediately, or pays the taxpayers for his self-aggrandizing one-way "blog" site - or to what he got paid in Azusa.
2. Ariel Calonne ( city atty.)reduces his salary to what he made at Boulder. If he refuses, then to what he made in Ventura the first time. In addition, he must buy a home and purchase all future vehicles in Ventura as long as the city pays his way ( not in Santa Barbara as currently ). He also must live up to the published hyperbole to retain even that salary.
3. The city must set up an equipment rental system ( it owns over 400 vehicles - half of them not in use at any one time). All overpriced politically correct vehicles ( Priuses ) shall be sold to Santa Monica at 1.5 times the price.
4. Each animal defecation ( and/or urination ) in Cemetery Park requires a daily pee fee ( like parking one's vehicle on city streets - with city cameras ). If the animal happened to pee on the grave of a particular individual's ancestor, that individual shall have an action against the animal owner. All funds generated shall go the the General Fund. All animals shall have registered DNA for proof.
5. There shall be a NIMBY tax on all who prevent new projects from occurring within city limits - for any reason - double for anti-Walmart dudes.
6. There shall be a per/incident 5% reduction in the salary of any city employee who fails to follow all city ordinances, is rude to any citizen, or whom, after having signed on with the city for an agreed salary ( especially firemen and policemen ), still wants the terms changed after signing on. If they keep it up ( like whining until they get the "911 fee" ) - then they have to pay back all their salary to date - and reimburse the city for all legal challenges thereto.
7. All city employees shall have oceanfront offices in the paid-for city-owned parking structure at the end of California. The existing "city hall" shall be leased at the highest possible price. Clear plastic "windows" with sea breeze air holes shall suffice.
8. All buildings deemed ugly ( either in terms of color, bad taste or both ) by any ten citizens shall receive an "ugly tax" to be computed daily and assessed quarterly until thing simprove - n0 "New Art City" can afford to be ugly.
9. The police chief's promised riddance of all graffiti ( he posts a call-in number ) in town shall include the bridge over the freeway, otherwise he personally must reimburse the taxpayers for the lost "New Art City" revenue this added ongoing blight creates.
10. Each day that the Planning Dept. [ aka "Community Developement "Dept. ] holds up an otherwise suitable project approval, for any reason, the Planning staff, starting at the Community Development Director level, must pay a fee equivalent to 1% of their department pay per deim until approval is achieved. This should streamline the department and the approval process, as well as act a a major mechanism for the generation of revenue to the city. There are way too many planners as it is.
11. Councilmembers shall serve shifts as cops in the downtown area one evening per week ( that is one evening per week per coucilperson ) thus reducing the number of cops, the number of purse snatchings in city-owned parking lots and grant them a chance to get the lay of the land (meditate )at night for future development ideas concepts.
12. Since it was widely published as to how many "homeless" there are in the county, each homeless person who elects to be homeless in Ventura, must notify Mike Montoya, head of Parks and Recreation, who will assign him/her a homeless spot to rest his/her head in one of the 52 city parks Mike runs and the city shall collect any outside government funds which this survey reveals.

Juandeveras:

A sardonically brilliant proposal which forces government policy-makers to be personally accountable for their decisions.. Truly, a novel concept with respect to local public administration in the City of Ventura.

My personal favorite is Number #11 - City Councilmembers shall serve shifts as cops in the downtown area one evening per week.

First it would really help them feel the pain that the hard-working men and women of the Ventura Police Department feel everynight as the walk the City's streets trying hard to administer, Solomon-like, the City's ordinance code.

Second, it would give them all the unvarnished "ground-truth" about what is working and what is not working downtown, especially when they directly engage in the resolution of disputes when folks get out of control..

Third, and finally, they would all quickly learn the the hard-way the sagacious wisdom of George Patton, who said, "..no good decision ever comes from the seat of a chair.."

When do these suggestions get implemented??

NostraDemus

Another suggestion: have the city charge to provide valet service for Trader Joe's customers when Wal-Mart goes in there.

I don't quite understand something. The One (and only) has just evoluted the "Plan to Save America". (You know...his Bailout Package Program...whatever He calls it today). The "Plan to Save America", according to the Gospel of Obama, will save America from slipping deeper into the abyss of financial ruin forever. He expects every state, county and city government to follow His "Plan to Save Americaaaa"! But, within this all, the "Plan to Save America" is, in essence, an earmark program covered in salad dressing; the same techniques used for Pork Barrel Spending you see so commonly obvious for States on the receiving end of Congressional and Senatorial requests from those states. You know -the "Love-Hate" factor.

Ironically, "The Arts and Humanities" have been added-into this, "The Plan to Save America" in the multi-millions of dollars; about $350mm to be exact. A "Bailout Package for the Arts and Humanities"? So, being able to add and subtract, it occurred to me why is the government playing a financial shell game on a national scale, while they expect state, county and local governments to share major cutbacks of their own; and suffering from it (to some extent). It's a great thing to know and realize that you are spending too much money for this and that; obvious items that CAN be trimmed-off like hangnails, and to be able to live with it, but another thing to be a victim of interest conflicts and churning the accounts and being hypocrites of our financial times.

Oh, Obama...will you ever learn?

John

Ventura is small enough that I think it is more accurate to call some of us "NIVBYs", (Not in Ventura's back yard)! I am hearing support in my neighborhood of the need for people to contribute to help keep some of the things important to them operating, such as Parks, Libraries, Arts, etc. But, the fear is the City will take these revenues and use them for other purposes. Is there a way that targeted contributions or fees can be applied to areas people choose, rather than the council's choosing? After all, none of us want them putting more money into their own bloated salaries. I think many of us who try to be active in our communities, with no pay, are every bit as much of a "hero" as these Firefighters and Police, who are so handsomely rewarded for their occasional "heroism"!

A general purpose tax measure, which only requires a 51 percent passage, cannot be set up legally for a dedicated use. That was the case with P6, the public safety initiative. Dedicating funds requires a 2/3 passage which is difficult to obtain. We could run the measure with a companion advisory measure which would spell out how the funds would be used. If not, I would look into a citizen advisory panel to act as watchdogs. We certainly have many such panels in this town already.

To answer your first question, any reduction in pay and benefits for existing hires would have to be approved by the unions themselves. I believe they should consider this in the spirit of community sacrifice.

The state is working on this issue in other ways by emergency executive decree, I believe. Somebody else may be able to clarify further.

Marie Says:
"Maintaining that pool on the east end is very expensive."

This is the same pool that the city built with promised/non-funds?

The same park that was built even though the city new it couldn't afford the upkeep?

The same pool that should be turning a profit for the city?

Where are all the out of towners that were going to use this facility?

I don't know if all of a city's services are meant to be self sustaining. Obviously libraries can't pay for themselves either. Could we not raise fees on pool patrons and street fair vendors and art classes?

I'm totally late to the game on this one but:

If you want to use a library, go to school, and pay tuition. Public libraries are a place for old people, and homeless people, everyone else can buy whatever book they want to read at the library. We're not talking library of congress here, but Any historical books should be copied and then stored in an acid free environment, not given out willy-nilly to joe citizen. As for the budget, why doesn't everyone with a D after their name pay double the taxes they're already paying. Since they are the "elitist" group, they have more money, and should be willing to sacrifice, let's not forget "patriotic" by doubling their taxes.

You want more funding pay for it, don't ask me for a dime, you lousy bums.

Lousy bums of course referring to anyone that wants to increase taxes.

OH BTW, there was a budget proposal with tax increases on the table, but dems think a spending cap will limit their idealistic goal of socialism, so they didn't go for it. It is now all democrats who are to blame for the deficit, no longer republicans. The republicans caved, and the dems are too "ambitious" to compromise. Yay democracy! Way to elect a bunch of self-serving pinkos to Sacramento guys, at least my self-serving representatives use logic and not emotion to decide things. The Soviet Man shall rise again!

unless republicans grow a spine.

Marie your blog is a magnet for rightwing nutjobs.

No, it's just that positive people who are out getting things done do not have time to leave negative comments.

Janet...unless they are retired, and also have other interests that do not take all day to do.

Haha,

How did you come up with the Rush Limbaugh sounding attack that Democratic voters are elitists? If you think the coalition that President Barack Obama is an elitist group then I don't know where you have been lately.

I guess sarcasm doesn't transmit well in text, but you guys need to calm down. The only serious point there is that the republicans caved to tax increases, and the dems still won't pass it because of the spending cap. That is beyond reason. You got what you want, but your party won't even compromise on that.

Instead of attacking me, why not comment on what I said. I quoted "elitist" because I thought it was funny, particularly because that always strikes liberal nerves.

I want Obama to do well and succeed in pulling us out of economic turmoil. I'm not Rush.

"If you think the coalition that President Barack Obama is an elitist group" huh? that doesn't even make sense. Obama is a coalition now? I think I know what you're trying to say, but it might help to clarify.

Janet, John,

I'm a working, positive, optimistic conservative. I like to discuss politics, and see other peoples' points of view. I just think that Ventura can live with 2 libraries, and if anyone suggests a county tax, I'll disagree. A city tax, go ahead and pass because I live in one of the safest cities, far away from that trashy town, which also happens to have more conservative voters, than liberal. I wonder what correlation we can draw there? You guys value seem to value libraries over rewarding hard work, diligence, and intelligence.

Skip,
I like Marie's blog. It's like having a spy in the enemy's tent. The fact that my opinion differs from you makes me a nut? I think Marie might disagree, and you're intolerant.

Das Vedana Comrades

Sorry, I meant to say the coalition that Barack Obama formed. I agree with you that in tough budget times two libraries in a town the size of Ventura seems adequate and a better idea than raising even more taxes.

A spy in the enemy's tent, "haha"? I note since you first joined us, your pseudonym has one less "ha" than it originally did. That must mean you aren't laughing quite as hard.

Look, as silly as blogs are, I do think they help us all understand each other a little better. I do get tired of the negativity, though. I love Ventura very much and don't care for your assertion that it is a trashy town. Also, how is valuing libraries not rewarding hard work, diligence and intelligence? It seems to me that book lovers are all of the above.

HaHa:

At the risk of being called a 'linguistic elite' by you, the correct spelling of the Russian phrase you chose to end your post with is "..Dozvidania, Tvoraischi.."

Which of course means, "..Till we see each other again, Comrades.."

But then again, had you but gone to any one of the many "Russian-English" dictionaries on the Internet, you would have known that.

Also, you could have gone down to your local public library and braved the geriatric and homeless crowds and gotten the same information in person.. Try it, you might find you'll like the socialization experience.

But that's a subject for another day and time..

NostraDemus

Marie,
yeah, I will admit that I'm only laughing at the human condition, and the fact that my candidate, who you love to bash, won. Thats two "ha"s. The economy sucks, and people are miserable all over. I'm sorry if I insulted the town you live in, but I've been to the worst part of my neck of the woods, and I've been to main street in ventura. Everyone hates when people point out the flaws of their hometown. Ventura has some beautiful areas that I would love to live in, provided I never had to go to any of the ugly parts. Keep loving it! I'll try to be less negative, but again my point was more that you have two fully functioning libraries. What's the worst case scenario, the people on their way have to wait an extra few stops before getting off the bus? University libraries and local municipal libraries are much different from each other. It's not hard work to borrow a book. Would their diligence be demonstrated by having to wait an extra week and trying to make sure they were able to get the book when it's returned. Intelligent? Well here is my University Library Vs Municipal library argument. If you're reading "The Great Gatsby", or some Noam Chomsky book for the 50th time, how is that intelligent? Just buy the book, and help the economy.

MR.DEmuS,
I have never claimed nor will claim that I speak or am able to write in Russian. I made an attempt, and knew the meaning, well roughly, I always thought it just meant "until next time". With that said, I won't apologize for my unwillingness to get the proper spelling, you all got what I meant.
I love university libraries. They are packed with smart beautiful people. I've probably been in a library more in the last 5 years than anyone else on this blog/forum (excluding private libraries). I have just written A 70 page report that may be published in a Political Journal. Libraries are important. But we need to be realists about needs. Do we spend the tax money on the library, or trying to feed the homeless. Or should we steal money from schools themselves to keep it open? Like I said pass a city tax, and It will drive business and residents with money further away and revenue will go down anyway.

Hasta La Proxima Vez Nos Vemos Otra Vez y Te Vaya Bien Geurillas. Si Se Puede.

And no, I didn't use a internet anything or library to write it.

Marie, I have to say that I'm pleased to see that you have acknowledged that some level of sacrifice should be made by public employee unions, and by public safety unions in particular. It would help the credibility of our elected officials to identify specific spending cuts that can be made can be made before moving forward with proposals for tax increases. I think that it is only fair to have a shared sacrifice, which means that we should not expect the public to be burdened with both higher taxes and slashes in services, while public employees escape making any sacrifices at all. Even token reductions would go a long way to building goodwill with taxpayers. But I would oppose any increase in taxes if public employee unions are unwilling to be part of the solution. Everything should be on the table.

Bubba, I never disagreed with you on that point, but in previous discussions I felt the need to put the decisions made here in some context.

I still do feel police and fire should be well compensated, but we're in such bad shape now because of declining revenues that the times call for everyone to do some adjusting of past positions.

What is happening at the state level is ample evidence that rigidity in thinking is not productive.

John T, and your answer would be stay with what the BuSh Admin did for 8 years ?!
I am an Indie & while I see too much pork in this bill, I still say we need change, as BuSh & his oil loving, tree cutting, gun lusting cronies have ruined this once great nation. We need to give this party a chance; after all, the majority of the Nation's people voted for him & the new Congress & the GOP had 8 years & did nothing but drive this once great country into the ground !
I mean, who was in charge to have created this financial meltdown ? Who was in charge; whose President, VP, Sec. of Def. all lied to the American Public, re: the nowhere to be found WMD ? Who was in charge that began a war in Iraq when the entire world knew they had nothing to do with 9 -11 ? Who was in charge, who took the largest surplus in history & turned it into the largest Deficit AND Debt in history ?
Yet all the GOP is doing is collectively ignoring all the facts & whining that the President won't add all their useless tax cuts - hey Neo Cons, you had your 8 years, shut the hell up & at least try & act like you feel Bipartisan Politics may work. The BuSh regime opened thousands & thousands of pristine acres of forest that Clinton had set aside, so they can stimulate their timber lobbies. And who won the largest contract in Iraq ? If you said the GOP, you are right. Why would this President & party listen & include your garbage, that clearly has been an 8 year disaster ?
In session today, many Neo Cons tried Amendments that would help & on one, the Senator did right in one part of it, but then he added that big business gets a better tax break - bunch of hypocrites!
Again, I feel President Obama & Dems need to get some of their pork out of this bill & increase many times over, the amount for infrastructure.
I am also sick & tired of the Right complaining about the Stimulus Bill, as Republican John Thune spoke, the Deficit is already 1.2 Trillion, BEFORE the Stimulus Bill, yet he, nor any other GOPer has made mention who was in charge when this Deficit grew to a record high ! Not once have I seen or heard, Mitch, John, Chuck, etc. at least take responsibility for their party's reckless Budget habits these past 8 & esp. these past 2 years !
They are all crying about what's before them on the Senate Floor, yet not one of these whining weasels has mentioned that they were in the White House & most all Cabinet positions, during this financial meltdown!
Lastly, how will tax cuts work ? I mean with so many out of work - thank you BuSh - they don't pay taxes since they have no jobs ! And the psyche of people in general is this - give me a check, in addition to my wages & we'll spend it; take less taxes from our checks & we just deposit our checks in the bank & that's it; we don't figure how much less our taxes are then withdraw that amount to spend - the mind doesn't work that way.
President Obama, good luck as you're gonna need it, in light of thje disaster you were left with.

Thank you very much for posting, NatureMuzic, I really appreciate it.

My pleasure Marie as I just want to offer up another view now & again, & since I found your blog, I hope this allows me that opportunity.
Thanks & have a bright day, even tho' we have much needed rain on the way :-)

And just today, the Tarp Congressional Oversight Panel found that when the BuSH Admin. answered them that they are getting about a dollar on the dollar for a portion of the 755 Mil bailout to the Banks, etc., the TCOP oonducted their own investigation & the truth is we are getting back about 66 cents on the dollar we gave to them! As the Director of the TCOP said, either they are lying or are so out of touch, they don't even know!
Yea, there's the GOP doing what they do best !

Nature "I'm an Indie" Muzik:

Would appreciate very much the elevation of your discourse a bit. "BuSh" as a contraction is limited and limiting. Your knowledge of what happened the "last eight years" - "timber lobbies", "neocons", "whining weasels" et al is deafeningly short on original thought; long on MTV groupthink and stream-of-consciousness name-calling. Suggest you collect some original thoughts and bring them forward, instead of the tedious regurgitation. As our new president rapidly implodes 14 days into his reign, unable, apparently, to rise above the dictates of the very mediocre Pelosi and Reid, we should all be collectively praying for him to grow up, demonstrate leadership over speechifying, or sublimate himself to a higher calling less destructive to our land - like, maybe, harikari.

Question: Have you any idea what the term "Neocon" means in an American political context or even who the first Neocon was ? and why ? Just wondering.

I think we all know what I mean by the use of BuSh !
And my thoughts are not original as the Nation has been complaining for 7+ years about him & his pets, so no, I take, nor took, credit for them, it's simply stating the obvious, which not surprisingly got lost on you.
MTV ? Please - haven't watched that for 20 year; nice, tho' feeble attempt.
Actually, he's been in office 17+ days - new math ?! And he's done more positive in this short time than BuSh did the past 6 months, oh, except for "giving" 355 Bil to banks with no accountability whatsoever. Hear what the TCOP said today ? No ? Didn't think so - selective hearing I guess. Well, it's in another Post of mine; read it, you might enjoy learning. And implodes ? Call it what you will, but if this is implosion, BuSh & his, must be considered a nucUler meltdown. Geez Georgie, read a book, pick up Webster's, something, for God's sake as you have been an embarrassment for 8 years & the world is still laughing.
Oh yes, I forgot one; our VP shoots a guy in the face, waits 2 days before even reporting it - nice job, Dick. But to his credit, he has been hiding for most of the 8 years. Can't blame him for the lies re: WMD's.
I need not explain NeoCon to you, or anyone - even if I didn't know, I would have looked it up, but I have forgotten more about this nation & politics than you'll ever know.
Good luck anyway & keep on tryin'!

Lastly, I AM proud of being an Independent as it allows me to see so much more than a tunnel-visioned view of parties, politicians & issues, unlike you, who only hears what Rush, Sean, Laura, Michael, Ann, etc, spew on a daily basis.
It's amazing, or maybe not, that you & your party, after only 17+ days, are whining non stop, when through 8 years of abused power, you tore this once great nation apart with your disaster of a war, your lying, cheating & overall incompetence & ineptness.
Nice try at wanting him to succeed for America.

N. Muzik:
Arrogance plus narcissism plus the ad hominum rant ( look it up ) when facts are a bit difficult is doubly unattractive. When challenged, you apparently have no intellectual choice but to double up on the invective. Facts "obvious" to certain people like you and O'Bama, like "hope" and "change" become, through the prism of the real world's intrusion, "shuck" and "jive", or "dog" and "pony".

The "Nation" and its editorette Katrina vanden Heuvel, whom you promote, are as left-of-center as Pravda and about as concerned for the well-being of this country. She is the trust-baby granddaughter of Jules Stein. She wrote for a Russian newspaper, her husband teaches primarily on Russia, and her view of the world is pro-Russian. You proudly acknowledge not knowing the definition of a term you freely throw around ("Neocon"), much less its derivation. One presumes in your world that ignorance is bliss: just say anything loud and often enough and a few dumbed-down individuals will go along. I suggest you read my comments about Bush elsewhere on this blog so you might avail yourself of some factual knowledge and hopefully gain some respect for your fellow bloggers. Last night Whoopi Goldberg and O'Reilly had a very spirited but very polite debate on many issues on which they differed. Perhaps you could learn something by watching a re-run.

J,
You're just reaching, flailing wildly now ! One, I never supported The Nation Mag & it's Founder - had the chance to receive the subscription, but I declined as it's too politically aligned; as I said, I don't vote party, an idea you should, but won't embrace.
Two, Again, I need not look up anything as I know exactly what you attempt to run past me - again, nice, but feeble attempt.
Three, I never said I didn't know NeoCon, I said IF - again, selective reading on your part. You seem to do a lot of this J.
My God, you are extremely brainwashed; who shops for you, whod ecides what clothes you'll wear, who decides what you eat, who makes decisions for you, when it's not politics, who does anything for you, since you seem incapable of thinking on your own.
I have clearly stated the facts, you ignore the obvious, twist what I have said & all my Posts are proof to the fact, so from now on, I will ignore you & your biased Posts - haven't the time since you are so tunnel-visioned.
I'm sure you'll wanna get the last word, even tho' we agree to disagree, so have at it, as again, even those that disagree with me, can at least see how you twist all my words around.
Have fun little J!

Marie,

If your idea of thoughtful commentary is the mindless, repetitive propaganda posted by folks like NatureMuzic then you seriously need to upgrade your standards.

And who asked you ?! At least I know you too are brainwashed.
The difference is, I can see both sides & you & J. see only one side, no matter the 8 years of disasters you believe never happened.

From recent Business Week magazine:
"Last year, as the U.S. financial system began to unravel, former Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson used to talk about the bazooka in his pocket. It was a metaphor designed to calm investors anxious about the government's willingness to spend massive taxpayer dollars to save the financial system if really needed. But Paulson's weapon jammed. For despite an array of lending programs by the Federal Reserve and the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) passed by Congress during his tenure, a host of Wall Street firms and banks still verged on collapse last fall.

Now the Obama Administration is effectively saying: Forget the bazooka, let's bring out the heavy artillery. The President's economic advisers believe it is time to hit the reset button on existing bailout programs, and think big. There's no choice given the deepening recession that's driving up jobless rates and home and credit-card defaults. All that in turn is contributing to multibillion-dollar quarterly losses at the likes of Citigroup (C) and Bank of America (BAC).
Bad Bank" Could Cost $2 Trillion
One big piece of that effort, of course, is the controversial $819 billion package of spending and tax cuts that were approved by the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives on Jan. 28. At the same time, the Fed is ramping up programs to buy securities backed by car, credit-card, and student loans as well as mortgage-backed paper to help thaw the credit markets.
Fixing the banks, Obama advisers argue, will require a more innovative approach than the capital injections into lenders that were the primary tool the Bush team settled on last fall. Fed lending and government cash transfers help, but Bush's advisers backed away from removing the array of toxic assets from the balance sheets that have caused a massive erosion of capital, although the Treasury eventually provided guarantees to Citigroup and Bank of America that would limit their losses on the bad assets. Those moves came after the first round of government help failed to stop the banks' throubles. But the continued uncertainty about bank capital has made extending loans to all but the most creditworthy borrowers unthinkable. "Money is moving throughout the system, but there is increasing recognition that these institutions don't have enough capital to withstand the losses from all the crazy loans they have," says Frederick Cannon, Chief Equity Strategist at Keefe, Bruyette & Woods (KBW)."
That said, as I have stated already, I see far too much pork in the Bill, but the GOP is also introducing new Ammendents, but in said Ammendments, they are also trying to sneak in their own earmarks! More hypocrisy.
The best bet is the 15 member Centrist ad hoc committee, working behind closed doors, to try & cut 107 Bil as well as more for job stimulus.

Aw, Bubba. You know me. I always post a nice, polite welcome to my new bloggers. And I've been overrun by conservatives lately, so it was great to see another point of view.

Besides, now juandeveras has somebody new to play with. I think he was lonely.

Keep at it NatureMuzic! And once again, welcome!

Thanks, yet sorry Marie as my goal was not to have others rag on you.

A Stimulus Bill has been agreed to, on a tentaive basis & from what I see, it's to be 780 billion. Now, I hope they removed all pork, from both sides & really devote this money to where it's most needed; jobs & other incentives. I last heard they were including tax breaks for home & car buyers, which is a great start & of course, the shovel ready inrastructure portion had to be increased.

Hopefully, this will be a start to the turnaround this nation is starving for.

OK Marie, I guess you've got to do something about all those gosh darn conservatives.

I normally like McCain, but he's ranting & raving about partisan pork, yet there have been several GOP ammendments that were half good & half bad with their own pork entered - geez John, speak the truth here as I & millions of others have watched the debate & you're wrong, dead wrong on this.
It seems 2 Conservatives will vote w/ the Left to pass this & McCain is fuming.

and who can forget the Katrina debacle, amongst others ?

Marie:

Sorry that a couple of "conservative" bloggers should make you feel "overrun", considering the sometimes-erratic level of discourse here. I, for one, consider thoughtful discussion a valuable productive activity. If you choose to marginalize those with whom you perhaps disagree; referencing their efforts as "play"; suit yourself. Seems to me this is a public forum.

N.Muzik:

1. The "stimulus" will not work; it follows the plan that wrecked the Japanese economy.
2. It's replete with wasteful projects ( $650,000,000.00 for digital TV coupons )
3. Even Keynesian theory operated from the perspective that we were operating from balanced budgets - here, we are already a trillion in the hole.
4. We cannot afford it - $10,000.00 per family.
5. It's greater than the economic output of most countries.
6. It assumes consumption causes growth. Consumption is the consequence of growth.
The first bailout probably did not work. Neither will this one.
7. The govt. will have to borrow money - as in from China - it will decrease the value of the money we already have and China's not thrilled ( see Atlantic Online - 12/08 - James Fallows )
8. Many economists oppose this.

As to Katrina - google Ray Nagin

As to O'Bama - reminds one of the hot air balloon allowed to rise until it disappears. Each day of his "reign" his credibility is reduced by his own frantic attempts to right his sinking ship. First time he's ever been accountable for anything beyond giving speeches and showing up to vote "present".

"... a new politics where the moneyed pork-barrelling and corrupt logrolling of the past would give way to a bottom-up, grass-roots participatory democracy. That is what made Obama so dazzling and new. Turns out the 'fierce urgency of new' includes $150 livestock ( and and honeybee and farm-raised fish ) insurance.

The Age of Obama begins with perhaps the greatest frenzy of old-politics influence peddling ever seen in Washington...

After Obama's miraculous 2008 presidential campaign, it was clear that at some point the magical mystery tour would have to end. The nation would rub its eyes and begin to emerge from its reverie. The hallucinatory Obama would give way to the mere mortal. The great ethical transformations promised would be seen as a fairy tale that all presidents tell---and that this president could tell better than anyone.

I thought the awakening would take six months. It took two and a half weeks."

Chas. Krauthammer, Washington Post, 02/06/08
"The Fierce Urgency of Pork"

Got up early for work, due to the heavy rains & bit of thunder, & was buzzing around the local web & found this site.
Anyway, just right off the top, I see juandeveras attacking Obama already, yet someone raised a lot of good points about the past Presidency, yet he can't, or won't, debate any of them.
I would like to hear you try & defend any or all of the points made by NatureMuzic, as he, or she, seems to have raised some valid issues, like the unfounded war in Iraq, the straight out lying about the weapons of mass destruction, how the government handled, or mishandled the situation in Louisiana (Katrina), the investigations of many cabinet members of that President, the disgrace of Mr. Rumsfield, & his Attorney General, etc.
I am not a fan of the current Stimulus Bill, but it seemed they were able to cut some of the extra garbage that both sides wanted in as I am still waiting for the L.A. Times to be delivered(to read more about it), but I agree that since it is one party or the other, why not at least give this new House a chance? And I am in no way an economist by any stretch, but wasn't President Bush & his party the ruling party? Also, there was & is, a Democrat in charge of the 2 bodies of Congress, they still had a difficult task while the Republicans had enough votes to shoot down a lot of bills in Congress, so it seems that so much of this current financial turmoil can be placed at the feet of the previous administration. I also read the article in Business Week & they raised some valid points as well.
So I would like to see you at least try & defend what he or she has written, rather than just downing the current administration after only 2 weeks. Seems they at least deserve an argument from you in favor of the Bush Presidency, no? I mean, how can you atack another without trying to at least justify what many of of us feel was 8 years of injustices?
Well, I'm off to work, so will check back later this weekend.

Quickly, to the moderator of this site, just curious how long you have had this site up ? I am not on as much as I would like & hope to be back from time to time.
Thank you
Steven

The site has been up a year, Steven. Welcome!

I mix Ventura politics with state and national politics and also promote charities and causes which need a boost.

SVG, Just for the record, I'm a He! Thanks for a well thought out Post, but don't hold your breath on an informed reply, as he & the like are & have been dodging the questions I & others have raised.

NatureMuzic, you aren't the one to talk. I have yet to see an informed, reasoned post from you. All I see is you parroting the same ridiculous DNC talking points repeated by just about every angry left wing liberal. I don't see why juandeveras should bother responding to your nonsense. The last time he gave you a thoughtful response you just kept repeating the same talking points over and over, as if repeating something enough times makes it true.

Thr reason ? The reason is that guy won't, can't respond with an intelligent reply to my questions, regardless of how many times I & others ask - then it's between him & I, isn't it ? Then butt out, unless you can answer all my talking points; no ? Didn't think so ! And what of all the same BS talking points he's been making, after 2 weeks of a new Admin ?! Hypocrites, both of you!
No, repeating does not make it true as all my points have been proven out - so aI dare you & him, TRY & prove there was no WMD, TRY & prove Katrina was not a disaster, TRY & prove these past 8 years has been anything short of a meltdown, TRY & prove Iraq had anything to do with 9 11, TRY & prove Rove, Card, Libby, on & on & on have not been under continued investigation at any one time, TRY & prove Dick didn't shoot someone in the face & wait 2 days to report it, TRY & prove how Rumsfeld & Powell "left" the Admin for positive reasons, TRY & prove BuSh didn't sign the Kyoto & TRY & prove he opened up millions of beautiful acres Clinton(the sex fiend) closed for preservation, TRY & prove Halliburton, Dicks company, did not get the largest contract in Iraq !
And like him, you are assuming AGAIN, as I am an Indie & have been so registered for 33years - got it ?! I have voted for Reagan, the first time, Bush senior the first time, I hated what Clinton did with Monica; the difference between your beliefs & mine are I AM willing to listen, whereas you & the other guy vote strictly by party, ala Rush, Ann, Laura, Sean, Bill, etc. ! I CAN see both & other POV,. you can't, you won't !
Yes, you & he say I keep repeating, & yes I do & again as you cannot even attempt to answer any of these !
So until you do, I am done with you too, not because we disagree, but because I make vaild points & you won't, can't even reply directly to them - what a waste of time.
It's hard to get thru a brick wall - sorry for this Marie....

The only response you can seem muster to any question is random references to GWB, WMDs, Katrina, Cheney, Rove, Libby, Rumsfeld, Rush, Hannity, and other miscellaneous nonsense, that has NOTHING to do with the topic. You're so oblivious to reality that you don't even realize how ridiculous you sound.

Marie & SVG, See how him & the other can't, rather, won't even an attempt at an answer ? So sad to be so tunnel-visoned that they can see no wrong in ALL we have mentioned; oh well, as long as they are happy in their own, closeted little world, so be it !

Yet when witnessing rants from Cathy Carlson brining up ACORN, socialism, leftists, and Al Franken you are suddenly silent.

Answer what? This is a thread about budget problems at the City of Ventura that threaten to close a local library, you dimwit. I'm not going to get dragged into a debate covering random topics from the past 8 years of a termed out presidency. Give me a break. And notice that I have not brought up ACORN, Franken, Lewinsky, or Clinton because IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION. When you are ready to engage in an adult conversation let me know.

Adult conversation from a person that keeps saying people live in their own reality or they are dimwits? Why not leave the name calling out of it? Does Marie Lakin call you names?

You are correct, I should not have called anybody a dimwit. Maybe our friend NatureMuzic can make an actual attempt to discuss the topic. What do you say NM? Do you have anything substantive to contribute on the subject of the City of Ventura budget, or on the library issue?

You also said Marie was living in her own reality, which was unfair being that she has respectfully debated with you many times.

Many people aren't interested in a high minded discussion of the issues, but treat the people that are interested with more respect.

Thanks, Ad Hominem.

Yes, I have always debated Bubba respectfully.

And honestly I don't care if people change topics on the ends of threads. If they want to talk about national politics, it's OK. It's all interrelated. I try to alternate between state, national and Ventura-specific issues because I know I have bloggers who don't live in Ventura.

In this thread NatureMuzic calls other bloggers "extremely brainwashed", and says condescending things like "who shops for you", "you seem incapable of thinking on your own", and "you live in your own closeted little world". You give him a free pass to act disrespectfully to other bloggers, yet I get singled out? It's hard to take any of this selective outrage seriously so long as the double-standards are so apparent.

No, I don't have a stack of free passes, I just ignore some people. You should try it. I am not outraged, but like I said before your personal comments against Marie were uncalled for in my opinion.

Bubba can just take a number. Since Hannah-Beth is not available to kick around any more, I'm the new Democratic Star blog pinata.

That's OK. My family loves me.

Geez, relax Bubba. If you don't like the process, there are other Blogs. I am not asking you to leave, but you do have a choice; simple.
One, I saw John T was talking Obama even before I started Posting, yet I see nowhere did you call him out for Posting off topic. Two, You jumped in between Juan & I. Three & yes, I do feel you are brainwahsed as you can't, or won't choose to view things with an open mind & the others you brought up were of my opinion. Three, Juan also Posted off topic & again, you were nowhere to be found; hypocritical, eh ?
I DID birng up Clinton & Monica, too much Dem. Pork in the Stimulus Bill & that I voted for GOP a few times, why ? It's because I can honestly say, with my hand to God, I am an Indie & can see more than just red, blue, etc.
I am not saying you're wrong for believing what you will, as the majority of the voters in this Union are one or the other. But when I saw John T rant about the new Admin. I replied. I asked of him & Juan, then you got involved & not one of you has replied to my points. Either you're embarrassed or what else, I'm not sure. But this I know, when some here attack a new voted in by majority President, after 2 weeks, yet won't answer to 8 years of disaster, then I see no harm in asking again & again. But no longer, as they are out there, & if you feel yolu can adequately reply to them, cool we can further discuss it. If not, then admit what a mess your President left this once great nation in & we move on.
And again, hate to beat a dead horse, but you don't seem, to be getting it. I have asked time & again, in a Forum where John T & Juan both spoke off topic, yet neither you, Juan or John T has ever tried to answer my points; when you admit they are all true as any common sensed, unbiased person has seen, then I will respond directly to you, if you still hide behind all your excuses, we are done, Bub.

juan says:
N.Muzik:

1. The "stimulus" will not work; it follows the plan that wrecked the Japanese economy.
Not entirely true, but it seems your party's policies didn't work; check the initial bail out, per Business Week & the TCOP & the obvious that there was no oversight or accountability. The US lost 36 cents on the dollar on each & every dollar Bush gave to the banks.
2. It's replete with wasteful projects ( $650,000,000.00 for digital TV coupons )
I had said from my first Post there was too much Pork, yet you won't admit the GOP in many ammendments also tried to add their own pork.
3. Even Keynesian theory operated from the perspective that we were operating from balanced budgets - here, we are already a trillion in the hole.
No, not quite, but close, no doubt. Again, President Obama inherited such a large debt & deficit for a hugely unpopular & unfounded war, amongst other policies. But it's like that of a wild rose; you have to hurt it to help it, therefore, there has top be some spedning as tax cuts alone won't work - tell me JKuan, when millions are out of work, & don't pay taxes, how will that help them ?
4. We cannot afford it - $10,000.00 per family.
5. It's greater than the economic output of most countries.
Yes, but many countries are the size of many states in the US
6. It assumes consumption causes growth. Consumption is the consequence of growth.
The first bailout probably did not work. Neither will this one.
No, spending helps a recession, if done properly so we'll see if this does - you are making a grand assumption when it has yet to formally pass. We all, including you, have to hope you're wrong & it does work.
7. The govt. will have to borrow money - as in from China - it will decrease the value of the money we already have and China's not thrilled ( see Atlantic Online - 12/08 - James Fallows )
Yes, they will just as every other prioer Admin - that's the nature of an Economy.
8. Many economists oppose this.
Many don't, even a popular GOP Economist, Mark, Zandi, agrees with Obama - from the Wash. Post:
By Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, February 3, 2009; Page A02

It's an open question whether the stimulus bill can lift the nation's ailing economy. But this much is certain: It's a bonanza for the career of Mark Zandi. The 49-year-old economist is a Democratic dream, a former adviser to GOP presidential candidate John McCain who advocates spending over tax cuts as the best way to deliver a quick jolt. The founder of Moody's Economy.com now asserts that even if it reaches $900 billion, the current package may be too small. His PowerPoint presentations are a staple at congressional hearings. In floor speeches and news conferences, Democratic lawmakers confer on Zandi an authority once bestowed on Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman."

As to Katrina - google Ray Nagin
I need not as I know all about it as I have dear, childhood friends living in L:A & floowed it very closesly & the US has top step in, & they did, belatedly & the facts are in Congressional records, on TV, books, magazines, first hand accounts as to how terribly the Bush Admin. dealt with that disaster.

As to O'Bama - reminds one of the hot air balloon allowed to rise until it disappears. Each day of his "reign" his credibility is reduced by his own frantic attempts to right his sinking ship. First time he's ever been accountable for anything beyond giving speeches and showing up to vote "present".

The opine of you only; not a majority for sure.

You're not gonna get any answers. They just want to gripe about what we have to do to fix the mess that Bush left.

Don't hold.... Yea, may be so & your nickname is a perfect match !

Long day over. Thank you Marie.
It seems, at least so far, there are some unwilling participants! Oh well, to each his (or her)own!

Zandi is not a "popular GOP economist". He is a Democrat and one of many economists who McCain spoke with. He has no corner on GOP thinking. He recommended an $800.00 bonus to voters under Bush. He'a an Iranian expatriot in the US. He's as confused as everyone else.

For those who do not know Latin: It's "ad hominum" ( singular)

So, Marie, who were the suppliers of the $4.5 million that Hannah-Beth spent? After she was termed-out in Sacramento. We've heard to date so much about those horrible people who contributed to those horrible people who actually won and who beat her .

No, he IS a registered Republican & is as popular as any others & yes, he was a personal economic advisor to McCain, who quoted him many times along the trail. Juan, facts are facts.

Still not going to reply to my points of truth ? Seems then by your neglecting to do so, is an admission of the facts as they are stated.
I guess I kind of new all along you wouldn't. And I can imagine the embarrassment; nothing against you personally Juan, it just is. I caught hell when Clinton "did not have sex with that woman" but rather than stand silent as if it never happened, I admitted my anger, frustration & disappointment regarding his "discretions".
I feel he did some wonderful things; he took the then largest Federal Deficit in US history & turned it into largest surplus in US history, in 2000, they paid off 221 billion debt, the largest pay down in US history, created were some 20+ million jobs, & in turn, the lowest unemployment rate in 25 or more years, the violent crime rate was at an all time high, yet under his Admin. violent crime dropped a record 8 continuous years, due to a huge increase in police jobs created & filled, the toughest guin safety initiatives, in US history, made giant strieds in Health Care for Americans, saving a then millions upon millions of acres for preservation now much of which was opened up for the timber industry, many important world ties, unlike Bush. He left his presidency with the higest approval rating since WWII, he, Bush senior & Carter have done some wonderful things for world causes since they all left office, but with all that & more in his resume, hypothetically, had he run again, I would not have voted for him as I am still angered over his lies re: Monica & his unfaithfullness to his wife & embarrassment he caused his daughter.
Point is, I can see the bad things for what they are, as well as the good & not hide from them as nothing constructive can come from that.

Are you attacking my use of Latin?

Just kidding. I might be referencing something else with a spoof on the Latin term.

Maybe not.

Have a good Sunday!

Sorry guys, I'm just not interested in debating the last 8 years of the Bush presidency in a thread that has nothing to do with that subject. And refusal to discuss an irrelevant topic is not an admission of anything. If Marie wants to start a GWB bashing thread then you are free to go there and debate the past and make all the accusations you want. I just don't see how discussing the past will resolve the very real problems that we face in this country. Plus it is a distraction from the discussion of relevant local issues that impact our local community. Seems to me that some of you just want to sit around and gripe about GWB, and expect everybody else to sit around and agree with you and praise your knowledge wisdom.

And you are also making some big assumptions about GWB being "my" president. First of all, he was "our" president, just like Obama is currently "our" president, regardless of whether any of us voted for him or not. But, for the record, while I did vote for GWB in 2000 I did not vote for him in 2004. I personally feel that he was a poor president and I was very disappointed with him. Nevertheless, it doesn't stop most liberals around here from stereotyping all conservatives as brainwashed "neocons", who sit around all day listening to Rush Limbaugh and watching Fox news. Some of you folks really need to take the blue pill so you can open your eyes and take a look at the real world around you, because it isn't as black and white as you pretend. The real problem is this divisiveness of us versus them, of which many of you are willing participants. It gets a little tedious listening to one-sided partisan lectures from people who accuse others of being partisan.

Well Bub, As Marie stated, this is open to any discussion relating to politics. Also, rehashing rthe past 8 years IS important as that's how this country is in such a dire mess.
And again I ask, you complain I went off topic, yet John T started it, Juan contributed, yet, you say nothing to your side ? Nice; I'll pass on the blue pill as I am more than capable, but I would suggest you grow a pair & reply to direct questions, which so far, you have not. If you can't, then we have no further discussion.
Juan did reply with some of his answers, tho' I was able to respond in kind. You keep rehashing the same old " I just don't see how discussing the past will resolve the very real problems that we face in this country." Again, let me try & enlighten you, which to date, has been impossible, but one needs to try & learn from the past & these past 8 years are filled with lies, mishandling of just about everything, bumbling & stunmbling, so much do where so many of his Admin. have quit or were asked to leave & all you do is hide, yes hide, regardless of what you call it - not a way to learn & try to improve.
So, unless I see you even make an attempt, you Bub, can have the last word as you're wasting time & space in here.

There is a common term which has come into the lexicon referred to as "Bush Derangement Syndrome". It seems to linger on despite the election having occurred. As I have been addressing other issues concerning my business activities, I do not have time to deal with people so afflicted. Regards

I failed to address your other point & that is, not once did I say you voted for BuSh 1,2 or both terms, so please cease from making false statements. But it was quite evident you voted for him at least once.

Nice made up term Juan, as any of us can do the same, but even to the last point I derailed you on, you said Zandi is a Democrat, when in fact, he is not - again, complete ignorance & avoidance speaks volumes.
You keep making statements, you get shot down, then ignore them; much like your fellow party's in both houses of Congress.
Ignoring them will not change history as sadly as it is, BuSh has already written his legacy & it's a sad, sad chapter in American & World History.....

As much as you want to blame all the problems in the world on GWB, the reality is that the fiscal problems affecting the state of California and some of our local communities are our own doing. I was relieved when Obama was elected because I felt that it was time for this nation to move on and stop the bitter divisiveness that has plagued our nation since the 2000 election. I didn't vote for Obama, but I accept him as my president and want to give him a fair chance to turn things around. I've moved on. If you've got nothing better to do than gripe about the past then so be it. Have fun.

The 2000 election was the commenecement of the Democrats squealing " we been robbed" after trying unsuccessfuly to steal that election as they had attempted in prior elections. It's been nonstop ever since. The Kennedy-Nixon race was won in the cemeteries of Chicago - the dead people were counted - 90,000 votes separated the candidates nationally. Democrats have been historically adept at lying, cheating and stealing - present company excepted, of course. The current president has already been given his chance - but, he's already being compared to Carter - a truly first class loser. Bush will, as stated earlier, go down as the absolute graetest president in the last 50-100 years. End of story. Screaming semi-literate Democrats-on-crack will never diminish that fact.

The 2000 election was the commenecement of the Democrats squealing " we been robbed" after trying unsuccessfuly to steal that election as they had attempted in prior elections. It's been nonstop ever since. The Kennedy-Nixon race was won in the cemeteries of Chicago - the dead people were counted - 90,000 votes separated the candidates nationally. Democrats have been historically adept at lying, cheating and stealing - present company excepted, of course. The current president has already been given his chance - but, he's already being compared to Carter - a truly first class loser. Bush will, as stated earlier, go down as the absolute graetest president in the last 50-100 years. End of story. Screaming semi-literate Democrats-on-crack will never diminish that fact.

So juandeveras, I know Juan is Spanish for John. But is deveras Spanish for Birch?

Someone mentioned the fiscal problems for CA., when I never said that, as once again, a few choose to assume. I was & am speaking of, obviously, the Nation's woes. Ca, with it's own divisive parties, as most states is affected by the Fed. but much of CA's woes came from within
Someone else said the dems tried to steal the 200 election - CHADS, CHADS ! The populace of the US chose the Democrat; sadly, in the 21st century we still feel the need to use the Electoral Vote count, but we all know the total popular votes were won by Al Gore. Another fact someone failed to admit.
Also, someone still has not acknowledged his error re: Mark Zandi, the Republican Economist.
I agree Carter was not a good President & has done far more good since leaving office.

From John Tirman the Executive Director of MIT's Center for International Studies.
Feb. 2, 2009
"Iraq's Shocking Human Toll: About 1 Million Killed, 4.5 Million Displaced, 1-2 Million Widows, 5 Million Orphans"

Now wait to you hear of the spending for the war in Iraq!

And to think all the lives lost, Iraqi's, Us, our Allies & the unheard of costs of this war!

The Daily Pennsylvanian
Issue date: 10/16/08 Section: News
Econ. Nobel Prize winner examines Iraq war costs
Darina Shtrakhman
PrintEmail Article Tools Page 1 of 1 The United States could be feeling the costs of the Iraq War for years to come, according to 2001 Nobel Prize winner and Columbia economics professor Joseph Stiglitz.

Stiglitz addressed those costs - which total $3 trillion - in a lecture to students at College Hall yesterday.

"That's more money than you will ever make in your life. Social Security, those kinds of problems, could be fixed with a fraction of what we've spent so far in Iraq," he said.

According to Stiglitz, pre-war estimates pegged spending at $50 billion.

"The Bush response to our figures is that 'war costs money,'" he said. "He doesn't challenge our calculations, and his departments admit that they severely underestimated what this war is costing us."

After the war, the greatest expenditures will be replacing the depleted supply of equipment, which could cost up to $3 billion, and paying for disabled troops for the rest of their lives.

In his lecture, which focused on The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict, the book that he co-authored with Harvard professor Linda Bilmes, Stiglitz also addressed the less-obvious issues that the United States will face in the long term.

"This is the first war where we went in with a deficit and still gave tax cuts," he said. "We'll be paying interest. We'll be paying interest on the interest. And we'll have to pay back all the money we borrowed, most of which came from China."

His book makes two major policy recommendations: better accounting in the future "to keep costs as low as possible" and changes in the way we treat our wounded and disabled troops. He said we need to set money aside immediately to deal with these issues"

Arms Control Center
From August 27, 2007

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Prior to the invasion of Iraq, Office of Management and Budget director Mitch Daniels predicted that the war would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 to $60 billion dollars. When George Stephanopoulos asked in January 2003 whether estimates of $300 billion were more accurate, former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld brushed them off as "baloney."

According to the Congressional Research Service, with enactment of the fiscal year (FY) 2007 war funding supplemental on May 25, Congress has approved approximately $611 billion for military operations, base security, reconstruction, foreign aid, embassy costs, and veterans' health care tied to the global war on terror. Of the money appropriated thus far, $450 billion will go to Iraq (74%), $127 billion will go to Afghanistan (21%), and $28 billion will go to enhanced base security (5%).

The original FY 2008 war funding request presented by the administration in February 2007 was for $141.7 billion. On July 31, the Department of Defense (DOD) updated its FY 2008 request by adding $5.3 billion for 1,520 new Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles. This brings the FY 2008 war funding request thus far to $147 billion. Government officials have stated that it may continue to grow.

Including the FY 2008 request of $147 billion, the Bush administration has requested approximately $758 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the FY 2008 request is approved by Congress, the global war on terror will become the second costliest conflict in U.S. history in inflation-adjusted terms. Only World War II cost more.

DOD's monthly spending rate for the global war on terror is currently $12 billion, including $10 billion per month in Iraq. Using a 30-day month, this means DOD is spending on Iraq roughly $2.3 billion per week, $333 million per day, $13.9 million per hour, $232,000 per minute, and $3,867 per second."

So what is your point ? Try and be succinct!!!!

So what is your point ? Try and be succinct!!!!

So what is your point ? Try and be succinct!!!!

So what is your point ? Try and be succinct!!!!

Hey gang, we have a child in the forum as I was just posting the facts yet this person can't seem to grasp the obvious. He just can't accept all the facts of his hero - Idolatry is a bad thing. He must not be a Christian.
Today, at least 4 more US troops were killed by a suicide bomb - what a waste of life & money - all for nothing.

man child - grow a pair.