Great photo from the O.C. event with dads holding babies and shouting "Heads on a stick." Just wait until junior goes to kindergarten and his class has 60 kids in it. Whose head will be on a stick then?

Obviously Marie, you don't listen to the show, because their tax revolt was against all of the legislature, not just the democrats. They know arnold is a fake, and that the republicans in Sacramento were in on the whole sham of a budget that has been passed in recent years. They don't want teachers fired, and they don't want raise taxes. They were calling the whole legislature frauds, isn't that how you feel?

And now you're referencing Dennert's blog. Please Please Please.

Brian asked me to reference the Simi layoffs in his blog because I emailed the Ventura press release to him and told him I was putting this entry up. Then he decided to put up another entry on Ventura.

Marie, you REALLY need to get some perspective.

We have the HIGHEST PAID teachers in the nation. What does California get for it? 50%+ dropout rate and cries every single year that they need even more money. The CTA claims CA is 47th in school funding... well, let's do the math base on THEIR claim: If we are 47th in cashflow actually getting to the kids, and have the highest paid teachers, guess where those ever-increasing tax dollars are ACTUALLY going - salaries and benefit packages.

California teachers have the lowest ratio of required education level :: lifetime earned salary & benefits. It is time for a change.

And I will heartily admit that they chose a rough road as an educator... but their chosen profession (and union) does not put them on a pedestal or make them immune from any form of criticism for wasting our tax dollars and whinning they do not get paid enough in front of the very kids they are supposed to instruct and lead.

Teachers in Ventura Unified make an average $50,000-$60,000 a year. You need TWICE that income to own a home here.

What I think you are trying to tell me is that teachers should not be able to earn enough money to live here or that people who want to teach should move to other states.

Fedup,

According to the U.S. Census Bureau the Median household income in Ventura County in 2007 is $72,762. Teachers should be able to live in the county they work in or do you feel they should have to drive from Kern County. Ventura County covers 1,845.30 square miles teachers need to live in the county especially with no rapid transit. The education required to become a teacher is very high especially if they get a Masters or a Doctorate. I for one want our children to have the best teachers possible. Do you have any children in school?

80.1% of our population are high school graduates and the number is 76.8% for the entire state. You need to do a little research.

HaHa,

As I said last Friday on the radio how. The biggest contingent who mandate spending in the state are the voters themselves through the Initiative process. They cut taxes with one hand while demand spending on projects with the other. Often on the same ballot.

HaHa

I forgot to mention it is common for bloggers to quote other articles and bloggers. Your complaints about Brian Dennert and Marie posting comments and referencing each others blogs shows you do not understand the Blogosphere.

BLOG FOLKS: The issue of teacher pay here is NOT the entire story about the problem for education in CA. For many years, CA has under-funded education compared to the rest of the USA, and the world. In Japan, students go to school daily until 7 p.m. In France, I'm told students go to school half-days on Saturdays. In Korea, it's even longer. Our kids here don't spend nearly enough time in school, and with the state cutting funding, instructional time will only decrease. We offer no foreign language in lower grades when kids can learn it the easiest, and little in arts education. It's no wonder the US is in such dire straights. Our government, in all of its infinite wisdom- both the left under Obama AND the right under Bush- vote to give billions to outdated auto makers who make awful cars no one wants, and the greedy thugs on Wall Street, but nothing to children (gee- think it's because kids don't vote or don't have some powerful, well-funded group like AARP lobbying for them?) It's a joke.

Stop picking on teachers. This mess is not their fault. They don't make the big bucks, all they want is to earn a decent living and have health insurance, like all of us want, while spending more hours per day with YOUR kids than most working parents spend with their own kids. Don't you want that person to be the best and the most caring? This is NOT a job for the lowest bidder! Teachers and schools could do a much better job improving graduation rates, etc. if all parents cared as much as they should, checked over their kids' homework every day, made sure junior went to school and stayed there, etc.

How about a demonstration for these folks:
http://pacbiztimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=667&Itemid=47

Of the 6,275 jobs lost last year in Ven Co only 113 were from the public sector. I feel for everyone who has lost their job. I respect the work they do for our county, but economic uncertainty is not unique to teachers.

I am curious of the cuts and teacher layoffs expressed as a percentage of district's budget and workforce.

Why can't I try to protect Marie from the crazy commentators Who appear often on Dennert's blog? I understand the "we all blog, hook up with some links, so I can get some more hits." At the same time, I worry becuase there are a few people on Dennert's blog that were only there to bash Sen. Strickland no matter the topic of the blog, and I just don't want to see a good forum ruined, by people like that. Sorry Marie, I know you may not agree, but if it happens, I'll be sad.

And I don't mind links to other blogs. You could link a study done by the new Hitler Youth of Amerika, and it might be interesting to read, I just worry when Dennert is in the mix. But thanks for making a broad generalization about me based on two postings on Marie's blog.

Ummm...yea. They are laying off math instructors. I would be one of them. 106 teachers will recieve their pink slips by Friday in Moorpark Unified. That is 1/4 of the teaching workforce. Out of those 106 teachers, 52 will be elementary level. That equates to 1/3 of the elementary work force. See - look how good I am at fractions...a real shame.

This is Bullcrap! CA teachers are the highest paid teachers in the U.S. and we have a 50% drop out rate. Why are teachers sacred cows who don't have to suffer economic woes like the rest of Californians?

California has gone away from the path of a better education, arts and health in our schools. Once respected, teachers have become just another talking point for those who want private business to meet the conservative’s cited limited needs of our society.

I recall Howard Jarvis telling a child that Prop. 13 would not hurt the student’s education. In fact the impact of the “tax revolt� has taken California from first to 47th in per student spending in the country and this coming year our state will be 50th.

Today we know that 1978’s Prop. 13 was a turning point. Schools have become only shells of what they had been and Jarvis’ vision of smaller government evolved into a proposed voucher system and national tests that rewards the affluent over the communities who need a stronger educational system.

Today I am afraid that we will not only continue to hurt California’s schools by laying off thousands of our young teachers, but we will also lose the future educators who are considering investing years of a college instruction to become teachers.

Respect for education, a vision for our children and society involve a stronger education.

The mantra of “No new taxes.� has carried our educational system to the brink of bankruptcy. Some will continue to fight the idea that the only good future for education is teaching the elite who will continue to vote for further economic segregation. This will only further the educational blight of today.

Teachers must become a voice in the political debate that has over the past 30 years nearly destroyed California’s once first-rate public school system.

I will be wearing pink on Friday to support California’s teachers and I invite all to the rally at our Ventura County Government Center this Friday, March 13 from 4:00 to 5:30 pm.

Haha,

I am glad you don't find any people around here bashing Senator Strickland. It is true that bloggers aren't able to find hidden blogs. That's why this place is a tea party for Strickland, except of course for the very well researched and hardest hitting articles written about his ethics and campaign in Venutra County.

Edgar,

I have never heard a teacher say there shouldn't be a single cut back or there shouldn't be any compromise over the budget.

Support...
Here are statistics from the nations you site as examples of "well-paid" teachers and longer school schedules.

Country/Region Monthly Gross   Yearly (12 month year)

US Avg           5,266           63,192 **

Ventura Unf      4,167 - 5,000   50,000 - 60,000 per ML

Ventura Unf      5,322           63,863 *

Simi Valley      5,411           64,940 *

Japan            3,968           47,616 **

Korea            1,595           19,140 **

France           2,401           28,812 **

Oh and as for prop 13 Mr. D - how do you explain away the fact that California state revenues have increased at least in proportion to inflation and population increases (some studies say it has exceeded inflation and population) and yet you decry that the state has no money. Where did all that money go?

Edgar

You are not correct according to the U.S. Census Bureau 76.8% of California residents are high school graduates.

Edgar

The number of High School graduates in Ventura County is 80.1%

LOL,
I detect some sarcasm, but I'm not sure what you mean, so please elaborate. I'm not saying this is a Senator Strickland love fest, but there are some crazy "Phony Tony" haters, who do not provide any relevant or rational topics of discussion on Brian's blog. This forum is eclectic, and much more entertaining, and usually more insightful than Brian's comments are. I don't mind Brian's blog at all, but the people who comment on it.

Koejoes,
Thank you for some hard facts about how much our teachers are actually being paid, but I don't believe that includes pensions, or benefits, which account for more billions in education spending. And the cost of living in California is huge compared to other states, and there is no "entitlement" to own your home in Other countries like we have now espoused in America. Also, the "pink slips" are only warnings. The only teachers that will be fired will be the last to be hired, and they will receive those real pink slips in June. Also there are 4% less students in LAUSD, and only 1% less teachers, and yet their drop out rate is going up.

Donna,
They should fire the art, and music teachers to keep the math teachers then?

General,
Obama has stood by his "merit" rather than "tenure" plan for teaching, and that is the first time I have ever heard a great idea come from his mouth. What do you guys think, can we overcome the Teachers' union in California to meet the Messiah's demands for a real competitive teaching platform? Or is there no way the bought off democrats in Sacramento will reform education, and try to fix our budget mess? Or in the end will teachers figure out the loopholes and manage job security and laziness simultaneously? (NOT CALLING ALL TEACHERS LAZY!)

KoeJos,

I explain things to people who place their real name behind their statements and expertise.

If my Dad had to be Governor he would not have done Terminator 4 because the plot was dumb
1) It was too long
2) They used too many profanities
3) My dad spends his time working
4) Lets not all go to the party Wednesday

Denis - So if you can't refute the facts - change the subject.

I don't use my real name since it is unique - there's only 4 families with my name in the US and one of them is my brother.

But I post and publish as KoeJos all over the web - google it.

By the way, I claim no expertise except that I bothered to look at published facts before making a grand statement about salaries and working conditions.

Oh, and I know how to count, read and write too.

Look KOEJOS,
I read a lot of your posts when I googled you and I was not impressed. I am assuming you spend a great deal of your day polishing your trophies won from tap class in the fifth grade.
My brother also has a secret name that I can't tell anyone.

As a teacher, I appreciate the support from the community. I understand completely the tough environment that we are in as a nation and a state. I don't expect the schools to be completely protected from the financial axe. Unfortunately, the way that schools are funded in California is toxic, so they are not as healthy as they could be and some will not withstand the shock that is coming to them. The effects of an illogical and callous budget process on the schools are not usually seen right away because educators care so deeply about protecting children's environments that they will do everything possible to keep the cuts away from the classroom and away from directly impacting the student. This is commendable but it also causes parents (i.e. taxpayers) not to notice how bad things are getting. But, much like a systemic case of osteoporosis where the bones appear to be holding up a body yet are actually porous, fragile and unhealthy, the school system suffers pervasively and deeply from the chronic underfunding caused by the passage of Prop 13 all those years ago. And now it is going to get much worse.

When classrooms and hallways are crowded, children turn mean and they get away with behaviors that cause the entire learning environment to weaken. It is harder to get and keep their attention and control, and the children at the middle and high school levels -- where they switch in and out of your classroom all day -- can feel dehumanized, which causes them to shut down or give up. When the younger teachers are let go, the entire school suffers from a loss of energy, optimism and can-do spirit. Many of the younger teachers who haven't started families yet are the club advisors and coaches. It's always good to have a balanced staff of young, middle and older teachers because they each bring something important to the student body.

I think our children are precious and that huge sacrifices should be made to ensure they have the best education, one that is getting them ready for the 21st century. It makes me sad that so many people resort to political propaganda, talking points and factoids pulled off of Google, when they have not stepped foot in a classroom since their own high school years or (maybe) once a year for an hour on Back to School Night.

KoeJos,

I spoke with the president of our local teacher's union last night and asked him for a salary range for most of our teachers here in Ventura. The $50,000 to $60,000 was his figure.

My plumber makes more than this. Give me a break.

There are few jobs more important or more demanding than teaching, with one exception: PARENTING.

Being a parent requires no expensive degrees, no peer review, no being held accountable to test scores. If you're looking for someone to blame for a child's lack of educational success, go knock on his front door and introduce yourself to Mom and Dad.

As a society, we need to place a higher value on education. This is everyone's responsibility.

Do you want to know where more and more of your tax money is going, KoeJos? Our prison system. How do you keep teens on the right path and away from crime? Education. It holds the key to everything. There is nothing more important.

Marie,
So you admit his numbers were right, and the local teachers' union's were wrong?

Your plumber is doing great in this down economy. And his job is way easier than teaching, albeit about the same in cleanliness.

Along with teachers, I value cops, firefighters, prison guards, doctors, veterinarians, soldiers, and philosophers. Now which ones are paid, and ran by the state? Which ones have no money to continue operating? A little correlation there? Now, I'm not saying we should privatize everything, I'm just saying that if there were more competition for private schools by giving parents a choice in where their kid goes to school with vouchers, maybe the good efficient teachers will succeed, and the old "should have already retired" teachers will be taken out. No one responded to my OBAMA MERIT PROPOSAL.

To parenting: What about hard working parents that have to support their kids just to be able to send them to school in clothes so they won't be made fun of? Do they deserve for the government to reach in their pockets and take thousands of dollars from each of them, so that Teachers' salaries can be raised? Yeah, parenting should go hand in hand with teaching, and that is a big problem in this state. But that isn't an argument for raising taxes.

Koejos,
I'm not impressed by googling your name either, but then again, a valid argument is a valid argument even from the biggest fool. And people who base their opinions off of google searches and blog entries are worse than fools with valid arguments. This guy has to resort to personal attacks because the numbers won't change however many times he refreshes his page. Poor guy, if he only knew that his friends were only inside his head, we could look for some help.

Marie:

One observation from your comments I'd like you to clarify the line where it's the parents fault versus it's everyone's responsibility.

If it's everyone's responsibility, how is it the parent's fault?

If it's the parent's fault how is it everyone's responsibility?

It is precisely these two contrary roles that is leading to greater social conflicts between a very diverse population and it's relationship with the educational bureaucracy.

What is the role of government? To educate your child or raise your child? Do we even know where the line is drawn anymore?

Inevitably, we'll hear its a partnership, but again this blurs the social conflicting responsibilities once more.

The schools blame the parents and the parents blame the teachers. Meanwhile, the child is growing older with neither taking full responsibility.

And what about the student? Do they bear any responsibility for their education, or does that just magically happen at 18 when we say you're responsible now?

If the students are learning bad behaviors at school from their peers, who's responsibility is that?

I don't know who's fault it is but it is going to get tougher on all of us.

I dislike when teachers or parents blame each other because it seems an excuse to do nothing.

nice scott!

Haha, I looked at the range in the link KoeJos provided and the lowest is $40,000 and the highest was $81,000. Most teachers, according to my friend, are making in the $50,000 to $60,000 range. I trust his figures. Thanks for the tip on the blogger name. It's all fixed now, and I edited your post, too. I admit I did not catch that one right away.

If anyone ever sees anything off here, email me right away.

Scott, I think we should look at what is going on at home when we are questioning why an individual child is failing, absolutely.

But it falls on all of us as a society to value and nuture a culture of learning.

Does that clarify my post for you?

KoeJos

I post under my own name which is unique and the only other Leshon I know of is my brother. Have the courage of your convictions and post under your own name. You have no excuse.

Yesterday I suggested here that perhaps a little thinking outside the box on education might be appropriate. It seems unlikely that the pink slips will result in many lost jobs next fall - it usually is the PR tactic used by school districts to "scare" the populace into writing their legislators and picketing. Somehow every kid always seems to have a teacher when the next school year rolls around. I once taught five high school subjects in a one-room school in the mountains of California and considered it the most difficult job I've ever had. It seems that teachers teach 10 months and have two months to generate income elsewhere. At 50-60 thousand for the teaching part, they should be able to tack another 10-15 in the extra two months; plus they have great med/retirement plans - and paid automatic increase for attending summer school. Retired Calif. teachers have a better retirement plan than any government workers in the state. In addition, they are never evaluated on the quality of the product nor do we hear much about the results. How about an article on the Catholic school and home schooled teachers and what they might suggest on this issue ?

Marie,

60k and they get the summer off. I'd take that job right now. Good benefits, and a great pension. And, they own a political party, which could always come in handy. If we would just stop raising taxes maybe they could afford to live here too. Thanks for fixing that little bug earlier, but I did warn you.

About parenting, our society has devalued education almost directly in a relation correlating with an increase in minorities, except for Judaism, and Asian minorities. I'm not pointing fingers, but I have a feeling it isn't the White protestant kids that are a big problem of the poor test scores, and drop out rate. I'd like to know if you can research that for me. I'm not sure if anyone has had the "ganas" to do that study. (Don't worry GANAS isn't a dirty word, It's Spanish.)

Brian,
I think people who publicly post their private opinion often find their mailboxes full, or their bank accounts emptied, enjoy your lack of anonymity. I think I might be Brian Leshon all day tomorrow.

Brian LYou're a public figure - you have a freaking radio show - I'm a private citizen who likes it that way.
Can you refute the salary figures or state income increases year-to-year or are you going to ignore that too?

MarieSo how much should be spent on prisons? Should we let the criminals out to save money?
Why can't we do what the sheriff in AZ does and put the non-violent prisoners out in the desert in tents, wearing pink prison garb - it would certainly cut down on costs and be a pretty good incentive to reduce recidivism.
What's your solution to criminals? Just education? How can crime be going down if schools have been getting worse?

Unfortunately the web site (California Dept of Education) doesn't report median income. But you seem to think that the avg shouldn't matter. The yearly difference between the 60k and the 63k is $2.4 mil per year that the district is paying to teachers.

Also, the figures don't include retirement or other fringe benefits.

And looking at the Ventura Unified Salary page, the starting salary for a certified teacher is $46k - the $41k is for emergency certs, etc.

And of course these are for 185 service days - the rest of us work about 240 days and have to pay for our own retirement through Social Security and 401k contributions.

Oh joy. All three of my "favorite" right-thinking bloggers are night owls. Such a lovely thing to wake up to!

Teachers and classified staff are not overpaid. There are many different levels of employees and laying off even one of them means a child somewhere will be missing personal instructional time in a specialized area such as art, music or P.E. or will be put in a larger class with less personal attention. Or it means that they will not have a coach, counselor, librarian or computer tech, lunchroom aide, school nurse, bus driver, playground supervisor, school secretary, and the list goes on.

Teachers begin their day around 7. Their work is highly demanding and stressful. How would you like to manage a classroom of 50 tough, inner-city teen-agers? My friend in the LAUSD does this every day. Then she goes home with a briefcase full of papers to grade and this takes her until around 10 some nights. On the weekends, she's still grading papers. I can occasionally get her out of the house to go for a walk with me.

When she gets time off, she deserves it. I don't know how she does it.

Many schools are on year-round schedules. Ventura has a modified year-round.

It's ludicrous that I am even having to stick up for teachers at all. Where are your priorities? Basically anybody paid with taxpayers dollars gets the stink eye from you three these days.

On the prisons: yes, that's where the largest increase in state spending has gone. Spending on education and social services has been flat. The voters approved the three strikes law and we are locking more of these guys up for longer periods. They are aging and needing expensive medical care (think Camarillo Prison Hospital). Medical costs have gone up, too.

P.S. Completely untrue that retired teachers have a better retirement plan than any other government workers. Ask Bubba about that. No, on second thought, don't. ;-)

Hey, why aren't you three complaining about prison guards?

On anonymity: What a pack of weenies you guys are. Here I am with my opinion, my photo and my personal life spread through cyberspace to give you guys a forum to complain.

But I thank you for participating.

haha

If I find out someone has been using my name as a false identity I will know who to send the police after. If you commit a crime, which using a false identity you can be found.

KoeJos

I am a public figure but I don't have my own radio show. I started making weekly appearances on the show Locals Only on KVTA on Fridays from eleven to eleven thirty. Make sure to tune in Pink Friday and the schools will be the subject. Ventura Unified Superintendent Dr. Trudy Arriaga will be our guest. Feel free to call in and have your misconceptions corrected. I have posted under my own name here for a couple of years without any problem. However if I ever do find myself having any problems I will know who to come after, You and HaHA.

Marie, once again you blame all the problems on republicans and prison guards. It is the same democrats who throw money at public safety unions that have given away all this money to the prison guard's union. They are, after all, also a public safety job. They make all the same arguments about risking their lives working in a dangerous occupation, therefore we should not be allowed to question the compensation they say they "deserve". After all, it needs to be "competitive" with other compensation packages offered to other public safety occupations. Whenever you increase the pay and benefits of cops the prison guards demand the same. That's how it works, and you know it. You give police and firefighters a free pass on their pay and benefit costs, yet you single out prison guards and blame them for being responsible for our fiscal shortfall. Prison guards are getting the same pay and 90% pensions that have been handed out like candy to all the various public safety groups. At least I'm consistent by objecting to all of it, you, once again, are cherry-picking and using selective outrage by being angry at one group and not the other. The only difference I can see is that the prison guard's union also backs republican candidates, whereas the other unions only back democrats. Hey, maybe if the state spent less money on massive pension benefits for prison guards AND cops AND firefighters there would be more money for education. You can't have it both ways.

On the issue of teacher pension, they are not as generous as public safety pensions. But they are still generous by any measure. I don't single out teacher pensions in particular because they aren't nearly as egregious in comparison. But teacher pensions and other benefits are an issue in that they have been underfunded for decades by school districts throughout the state, who have made commitments but have not set aside the resources to pay for them. As pension funds lose value in our collapsing stock market it will divert massive amounts of education funds to shore up these commitments. That means that you will likely end up laying off young teachers to pay for promised retirement benefits for older teachers. And many school districts also have a huge exposure with unfunded healthcare liabilities.

I know that makes me a "negative nelly" in your book, but I'm just giving you an honest assessment of why we are in this situation. Its not just your city that is facing a fiscal meltdown, but even local school districts that are about to suffer the consequences of long term fiscal mismanagement. Government budgets have been driven by a bubble economy and the bubble has burst. Wearing pink on Friday won't change reality.

Oh no! I've stirred Bubba up again. My mistake. I am clearly not a fan of the prison guards union nor Republican fiscal policy during the Bush administration. Who exactly burst that bubble, would you say? Eight years of hands-off Milton Friedman-inspired economics. You will not once concede the terrible failures there.

I don't think wearing pink will change anything, either. But folks need to understand what they will be missing from our schools and that a "cuts only" budget as some advocated for was not realistic.

Our school district has been better than most in weathering storms. It is run very well.

That's what you get for using my name in vain.

With regard to bubbles, all bubbles burst on their own. It is the nature of bubbles. The problem is in their creation, not in their bursting. And as much as you want to blame it on Milton Friedman economics, our own government played a very large role in creating and sustaining these bubbles. After all, it was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that led the way in lowering lending standards and packaging toxic loans. Which is why it is so ironic to see all these blowhard politicians, like Barney Frank, demanding accountability from Wall Street executives when he is just as culpable. Or watching Nancy Pelosi rail against all those greedy corporate executives with their private jets, while commandeering the U.S. Air Force to supply her with private planes at her whim. And don't think that I'm letting republicans off the hook either, they're all to blame.

Brian Leshon,

I usually joke about liberals wanting to be Soviets, and I have taken a lot of heat for it. But you just proved that you want to have me locked up for my difference of opinion. Good job Comrade.

Brian L., I've been at this awhile and I feel pretty safe. I try to keep this light so nobody gets angry and we can learn from each other.

That is my goal, anyway.

OK, back to tearing into Bubba. :-)

Bush and his pals at the SEC looked the other way as these risky mortgage-backed securities were being sold and his administration helped foster this dream of home ownership for everyone at these terrible costs.

NY TIMES: Lawrence B. Lindsey, Mr. Bush’s first chief economics adviser, said there was little impetus to raise alarms about the proliferation of easy credit that was helping Mr. Bush meet housing goals.

“No one wanted to stop that bubble,� Mr. Lindsey said. “It would have conflicted with the president’s own policies.�

They ignored Madoff, too. They failed on every single level. This makes me furious and why you continue to downplay it while disparaging teachers and firefighters and police officers mystifies me.

Two posts have been deleted. One of our regular bloggers, haha, decided to pretend he was somebody else. In this case he decided to pretend he was two people who blog under their own names here. This is not acceptable behavior.

The miracles of technology allow us to see when one blogger is posting under multiple pseudonyms.

You owe these people an apology, haha.

To Marie,

Here is a link to the Ventura Unified District Accountability Report Card with salary info on page 7. And remember, this is NOT for 12 months. They can earn more income in the summers, if they chose to work at another job, or sell real estate, or tutor, which many do.

http://www.venturausd.org/esd/HTMLobj-5308/VUSD_-_DARC_2007-08_-_English.pdf

Beginning Teacher $40,844
Mid Range Teacher $61,152
Highest Teacher $81,464
Average Salary $63,863

And teachers pay less for their car insurance, their mortgages, supplies at JoAnn fabrics, education stores, etc. Lots of beginning teachers don't have kids to support, and live with their parents the first couple of years after college. And lots of older teachers have roommates, or are married, with 2 incomes. That seems to me enough money to live on and even have money left over. They can sock away lots of additional money tax free with the teachers retirement program, if they wish. Lots of teachers have lower bills and have less taxes, and have better medical insurance and retirement packages than just about anyone at their same income level.

So cry me a river. I hope it rains hard on Pink Friday. Lots of people are out of work. The CTA is greedy as can be. They were stupid to alienate millions of Californians by spending $2M to oppose Prop 8 and the traditional definition of marriage. Lots of people find it hard to feel sorry for the union now.

Yes, this is the information that was posted before. Except for the bit about the fabric store. Oh boy! They get to pay less for supplies at JoAnn Fabrics!

You aren't perchance somebody I met before in an education rally in the rain? :-) I thought you said you weren't blogging any more? You were concerned about fabric then, too, as I recall.

Please, no more 5000-word essays on my evil ways. I need bifocals and it is just too hard to read.

And the comment about your plumber making more money than an average teacher was EXTREMELY condescending.

Plumbers and other self-employed bonded tradesmen have all my respect. They must spend huge amounts of money to get bonded, and they pay huge health insurance premiums. Why? Because the insurance actuary tables put them very high on the mortality rates, due to the infections the trade gets from AIDS.

Also, they must bankroll their trucks and equipment, and pay their own taxes and any retirement program they might be able to afford.

So Marie, unless you have seen the bank accounts of a teacher side by side with your plumber's bank account and tax return, how do you know that a teacher gets less than your plumber? It isn't how much you make, it is how much you keep. Don't you watch Suzie Orman?

Then again, if a plumber is a good businessman, he CAN make much more than a teacher, but only after years and years of hard work, no emergencies or lawsuits, no expensive bad habits, and after establishing a good reputation for good work. If he is financially savvy, then a self-employed plumber can make a good business eventually from this trade.

Here is a story for you. We've had several income properties. One renter was a young plumber who had learned the trade in the Air Force. We watched his business grow. After a few years,he moved out of our modest rental house, and bought a brand new place in our town, up on the hill, much nicer than our house. He bought a fleet of trucks. We always called him for our plumbing on our house and our rentals until this year when we discovered he had sold his very successful business. He was under 50.

Please think twice before you accidentally insult tradesmen.

Oh good, it took just 300 words to tell me I'm evil this time. You are improving in that area.

Hey, my plumber is a good friend! He's cool with it. He gets discounts at the plumbing supply store.

Marie, how convenient that you lay the entire blame for the financial mess at the hands of republicans and the Bush administration. Unfortunately that is just revisionist history. The truth is that both parties are to blame for this and the thing that let up to these events were set into motion long before GWB became president.

BTW, nice touch in blaming the SEC under GWB for not catching Bernie Madoff, though you conveniently forget that his scam was going on under the radar during the Clinton administration as well. Seems to me that the SEC was just as incompetent when being run by republicans AND democrats.

I also like this quote from your last post, "Bush and his pals at the SEC looked the other way as these risky mortgage-backed securities were being sold and his administration helped foster this dream of home ownership for everyone at these terrible costs." Then you quote a NY Times columnist blaming bush policies for the whole mess.

Since you love the NY Times how about this article from 1999 that explains how the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION was directing Fannie Mae to expand into the subprime market and lower lending standards in order to to expand homeownership opportunities for minorities and low income borrowers with poor credit. The article talks about how this policy will expose Fannie Mae to taking on more risk and could result in a massive bailout during tough economic times.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260

So does my NY Times source carry as much weight as your NY Times source, or are you just going to continue ignoring anything that doesn't fit neatly into your one-sided view of the world?

Somehow Juan always seems to be wrong. Teachers have the best retirement in the state of any government workers? Did he somehow miss The Bubba Kidd daily post on Ventura Firefighters today?

Attend summer school? They canceled it.

How is your friend the elementary school teacher that you said campaigned for proposition 8 in her classroom?

Republican,

How does the work plumbers do cause them to catch HIV?

BI asks:
"How does the work plumbers do cause them to catch HIV?"

How about exposure to raw sewage?

HaHa,

Your behavior is juvenile. I will defend your right to your opinion to my death. Something you probably would not do for me. You don't seem to realize using someones identity other than your own is a crime. I refer you to Marie's post.

"Two posts have been deleted. One of our regular bloggers, haha, decided to pretend he was somebody else. In this case he decided to pretend he was two people who blog under their own names here. This is not acceptable behavior.

The miracles of technology allow us to see when one blogger is posting under multiple pseudonyms.

You owe these people an apology, haha."

Denis and I are waiting for your apology and you should have the guts to post under your own name.

Thanks Marie,

I know most of people are here for a good lively discussion and that is why I post. Everyone has the right to their opinion. As you said the behavior of HaHa is unacceptable and I am willing to bit everyone else who posts here would agree with you. I told him he wouldn't get away with it before he did it he just wanted to push it.

My favorite part about this blog is that I get conservatives to read the New York Times. That alone is worth the effort.

Here's more NYT for you, Bubba:

... Armando Falcon Jr. ran the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, a tiny government agency that oversaw Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two pillars of the American housing industry. In February 2003, he was finishing a blockbuster report that warned the pillars could crumble. ...

Mr. Falcon’s report outlined a worst-case situation in which Fannie and Freddie could default on debt, setting off “contagious illiquidity in the market� — in other words, a financial meltdown. He also raised red flags about the companies’ soaring use of derivatives, the complex financial instruments that economic experts now blame for spreading the housing collapse. ...

At the time, Fannie and Freddie were allies in the president’s quest to drive up homeownership rates; Franklin D. Raines, then Fannie’s chief executive, has fond memories of visiting Mr. Bush in the Oval Office and flying aboard Air Force One to a housing event. “They loved us,� he said.

So when Mr. Falcon refused to deep-six his report, Mr. Raines took his complaints to top Treasury officials and the White House. “I’m going to do what I need to do to defend my company and my position,� Mr. Raines told Mr. Falcon.

Days later, as Mr. Falcon was in New York preparing to deliver a speech about his findings, his cellphone rang. It was the White House personnel office, he said, telling him he was about to be unemployed.

Marie, why do you keep pretending that this is a partisan issue? I've already provided you with information that shows that the Clinton administration launched these programs, using Fannie and Freddie to advance a policy of pushing up home ownership rates by engaging in risky lending strategies. And my information was published before GWB even became president.

And what about Barney Frank, the Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee? He received campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from 1989 through 2008, and his former partner was an executive at Fannie Mae from 1991 to 1998 and helped to develop many of their affordable housing and lending programs. Frank opposed stronger regulations for years, including a 2005 reform bill. Before the implosion of Fannie and Freddie Barney Frank actually stated, "These two entities...are not facing any kind of financial crisis.... The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."

So why is it that you continue to cherry-pick your information and single out republicans for the mortgage crisis while giving democrats a free pass? What was it you said recently about people who ignore links and facts? You really should follow your own advice.

John Doe: You got the answer right. The actuary tables show plumbers with a high rate of catching HIV from raw sewage. That is why their health insurance rates are high. Ask an insurance broker.

And the #1 health risk to firefighters in Los Angeles is not an accident or death from fighting fires. Because of mandatory sprinkler systems in office buildings, most of the hours are spent as paramedics. Can you guess the health problems? Tuberculosis is #1, and hepatitis is right up there, too. I got this straight from the horse's mouth.

Teachers in Ventura County are also at risk for TB. Their union only pays for testing every 4 years. That is SO stupid. The local unions should provide free TB testing every year, for the good of their members. The union should also press for students to be retested at middle school, and again at entering high school. It is STUPID to let a kid with TB cough and sing and yell in school for 12 years, and only be screened once. It is spread exactly that way, with the spit hurled out of the mouth with high speed breath. Vallejo had a terrible TB outbreak 2 years ago at a high school. It could have been caught years earlier. This is happening all over America. Google "TB outbreak high school" and read how serious this is.

Ventura County's TB rate has quadrupled over the last 10 years. How many kids here live in homes where there are TB carriers? I bet it's more than just a few. How long will it take before those kids catch TB from their parents/relatives/housemates? Under crowded conditions, it won't take long. And those kids will bring TB into the schools, infecting more kids and infecting teachers and secretaries, and janitors.

My daughter-in-law, a teacher, tested positive for TB. This was after doing student teaching in a Title 1 school. Who knows where she picked it up. The pills are $90 a month, and it takes 9 months to see if it is the drug resistant kind of TB. There were weeks and weeks of daily vomiting. The medicine is hard on the organs, and can cause damage, especially if the patient is diabetic.

Instead of protesting in Pink, how about teachers asking the union leadership to negotiate for free TB screening.

You want the unions to now pay for healthcare screening? That used to be the duty of an employer.

The burden of proof is on you. Can you provide a link to a credible source that we should be wary that our plumbers are at an increased risk for HIV?

Is it just me or are people forgetting that higher taxes are costing people jobs? Apparently teaching jobs are more important than the "average" guys gig.

I don't want to see anyone lose their job but we didn't get to a near 10% unemployment rate (I believe that it's the highest in the nation) because teachers are getting notices that they MIGHT be laid off. I know several people who have lost their jobs because the businesses they work for have downsized or moved due to the current economy AND the looming tax increases.

We have a legislature that just proposed the biggest tax increase in history and then followed up by asking for MORE in taxes. All of this with absolutely no structural reform to the budget and another budget deficit right around the corner. People seem to be under the false impression that this latest tax increase will solve some long term problems. WRONG!

Private sector employees are also wondering if they'll be able to feed their families. It's too bad that some around here don't seem to care as much about them. Or, at least they'll hope that the worst business climate in the nation will do just fine.

We've really gotten sidetracked here.

Bubba: The regulatory policies were set by our former administration and its appointees. Not my fault they were Republicans. I voted for Gore and Kerry.

Barney Frank was the co-sponsor of a bill to combat abuses in the mortgage lending market, and to provide basic protections to mortgage consumers and investors. When the Democrats took the majority back in the House it passed in 2007, but it got sidetracked in the Senate by a few .... gulp ... Republicans.

The same thing happened in CA in 2001. The Republicans worked to get regulatory legislation watered down. But Tony Strickland even voted against the watered down version.

Back @ Don B. : Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Reagan sign off on the biggest tax increase in CA history (proportional to the budget) in 1967? Wilson also increased taxes.

Brian and Denis,

I'm sorry for posting under a pseudonym that happened to exactly match your real name. I thought it was funny, obviously the study that says conservatives have more of a sense of humor than liberals is true. Stop threatening me about some mystical crime that doesn't exist. As long as I don't buy anything, or defame, or cause damage with libel while using your name, I can be a professional BRIAN LESHON impersonator. Are you suggesting that Elvis and Marilyn Monroe down on Sunset BLVD are all breaking some law, or how about Johnny Depp from Pirates?

Marie,
If it is against your forum rules to make an obvious joke, especially since I used my own email address, I'm sorry. I don't want the good names of any good people brought down, but I had a good laugh out of it. Sorry if I offended you, and I will refrain from using anyone else's name, real or otherwise, except my own. But not using your real name on a blog post is not an answer to a real important question about how we can grow as a state or county or even city, and that dodge is pitiful. If I told you that I don't answer your question because you do use your real name, will that be acceptable?

Basic blog etiquette would hold that posting under somebody else's real name is not appropriate. I also do not allow profanity, racial- or gender-related harassment, threats, defamation of character or libelous posts. I don't like posts that make fun of people's looks or religion. If it crosses the line, I delete. My kids read my blog. I don't want anything here that they should not be looking at.

Fair, policy-based criticism is encouraged. But you can be funny. I like funny.

Those are my rules.

Thank you for apologizing.

Don,

As a teacher I am an average guy. I get paid a fair wage and I work a fair amount. I appreciate my job and I appreciate the taxes that pay for it.

Teachers don't sit around demanding people lose their jobs, but many people here are demanding more and more teacher jobs be cut.

No matter what there are already positions being cut. Teachers aren't demanding zero positions be cut. We are asking to minimize the cuts as much as we can.

Teachers locally for the most part haven't gotten a real raise in years. Can you say the same for law enforcement and firefighters?

Why aren't you demanding a police officer or a firefighter gets fired?

Is there a single police officer in Ventura County getting fired because of the economy? I haven't seen that news report.

HaHa

You are not funny and the studies actually show that Dems have a better since of humor and better sex than Republicans. Unless you think people like Rush are funny. I like the way you apologize and then take it back, it reads like a Bush signing statement. In sales we would call that buying back your close. Your behavior may have caused someone to have a false impression of my positions in your attempt to discredit them. In case you are unaware many celebrity impersonators have copyright infringement cases filed against them by the estates and they are not hiding their own identities. Sorry Marie, this is no apology. Johnny Depp is playing a character in a film. Are you saying he was impersonating the real Captian Jack Sparrow?

I've been saying for a long time that we need to trim the pay and benefits for cops and firefighters since I believe that it is crowding out available funding for other programs, including education. People have to realize that when you give one group a larger slice of the pie you have to take it away from another group, especially when that group already receives the lion's share of available resources. But many people around here don't want to believe that, and the only solution they ever offer is more taxes or blaming all of our problems on one political party.

BTW, notice how the City of Ventura has asked for concessions from all of their unions, but public safety gets away with selling back vacation hours and deferring pension increases instead of actual cuts in pay. How nice that firefighters just got a 50% increase in their pension benefits in the middle of a fiscal crisis, and the only thing they can offer in return to help out the city is to DEFER the increase for a year. What kind of sacrifice is that? Clerks and librarians who who haven't had any massive hikes in their compensation are taking REAL cuts in their pay. In this budget crisis those guys are the real heroes. And also notice, as I predicted, that money is being saved by leaving police and firefighter positions vacant. I have stated for a long time that giving away these pay and benefit increases actually reduces the ability of our communities to fully staff public safety departments, which is the exact OPPOSITE of the recruitment and retention arguments being made to justify these ridiculous increases.

All of these problems will continue to persist unless we are willing willing to open our eyes and tackle the real issues. Those that sit back and point fingers, blaming one party or the other are part of the problem, not the solution. I know what I say make a lot of people uncomfortable, but maybe things need to be stirred up because so far I don't see any serious effort by our elected leaders to actually solve these problems. It is wishful thinking to believe that all of this will simply fix itself in a few years and everything will be business as usual. The fiscal problems faced by this nation, our state and our local communities are severe and persistent, and also about to get much worse. We need to make the tough decisions and we need to make them now.

Giving up holiday pay is a cut in pay, Bubba. The firefighters will have to defer their benefit package longer than a year. This is a two-year budget.

I am wondering if you are just cutting and pasting your comments these days. You didn't respond at all to my last post and just offered up more of the same.

Note that our employee unions in Ventura offered to work with management on being part of the solution. I think they should be congratulated on this effort instead of criticized for not doing enough.

Brian L,
I guess you got to read the post before Marie got to delete it. Name calling is bad, unless they're accurate. I think your ideas are garbage, and smell worse. You won't answer questions, and think it is somehow less relevant to ask if you don't use your full real name on a public blog post. That idea will not help shape public opinion or help people understand the issues. You are clearly avoiding them, and threatening to "send the cops" to me for posting anonymously. Lenin is spinning in his glass case.

I'm shaking in my boots comrade! Are they here now?

It is people who act and think like you that make uneducated conservatives hate you, and educated ones call you "Godless". You want to be a big man ask me what my name is, and maybe I'll tell you the truth, or maybe I'll just lie to you. It is a blog, there is no measurement but your own experience and research to discover what is right and what is incorrect. I don't think adding a name to my opinion should make my argument any stronger. Take it at face value, and then comment on it. I didn't want to make this personal, and I still don't, but I think you're a classic "girly man" as Arnold would say. You have no morals unless they suit your agenda and beliefs. You make claims about other anonymous bloggers and myself without even knowing who we are. You are a fraud, and you have decided to make it clear to the entire World of Marie. Keep whining to her, because the cops, who are underfunded because of your tax and economic beliefs, won't be looking for haha anytime soon.

On a side note: Anyone heard from Katie? Is she sick? I hope she's ok.

You could have at least left the link to the NYTimes article up, Marie. Conservatives are funnier than Liberals.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/science/04tierney.html

Oh haha, you really are trying my patience.

Instead of calling Brian L. really awful names (now deleted) try making your point with logic and reason.

I really don't want to ask the Star to filter your posts. I've done this before with another blogger and it continues to be an endless hassle.

Behave!

at least I haven't brought up pension plans yet...

HaHa

I answer questions all the time and present facts just look at all of my posts. I took a look at the NYT article and it is a nice study. There are some points about the study you may need to consider. One of them is that the study was only done in Boston. I think anywhere a political group is in the minority they tend to try to find something to laugh at. If you look at the shows on television such as Daily and Colbert they are very funny and have a mostly liberal audience. Take a look at this post on abcnews.com about Jib Jab, http://blogs.abcnews.com/click/2008/07/jib-jab---repub.html, whose work is also very funny and pretty much nonpartisan. It is visited more by Dems. In the end we can all use a good laugh considering the state of things.

HaHa

In response to your claim my ideas are garbage. Currently the majority of Americans share my views. I have very little concern for the opinions of the uneducated liberal or conservative as they have nothing to base an informed opinion on.

I really hope you all are right. A majority of people in Germany thought they had the answer to solve their problems in the 30's too, and that didn't work out to well.

Nielson ratings of TV shows, and hits on humor sites don't statistically correlate the amount of humor of each political philosophy. Your "only in Boston" argument is weak. And for the record, I find The Daily Show, and The Colbert Report very funny, along with some of the sites referenced there.

Just to quote you:

By Brian Leshon on March 10, 2009 10:57 PM

KoeJos

I post under my own name which is unique and the only other Leshon I know of is my brother. Have the courage of your convictions and post under your own name. You have no excuse.

And Denis before you:

By Denis O'Leary on March 10, 2009 7:05 PM

KoeJos,

I explain things to people who place their real name behind their statements and expertise.

Entonces,

Neither of you were able to refute his numbers and instead attacked him for not using his "real" name. A pathetic dodge to a "real" statistic that contradicts your opinion. I don't doubt some of the other numbers offered here, but you guys obviously either choose to ignore them, or are just ignorant of the real world.

Brian L Your opinions aren't necessarily garbage, just those of a partisan political hack who's only goal is to get his guy/gal/party elected.

How do you like that our president has broken two more major campaign promises - earmarks and signing statements?

Has he actually tried to keep any of his goals? Should we still be hopeful that change will save us from those nasty Rush Limbaugh led Republicans?

On TB - It is rarely reported that various strains of TB are coming in over the border unchecked: this a disease completely eradicated in this country until the borders opened. My late father ran the county medical dept. in San Diego a decade or so ago and said the politicians do not want to report this as well as that a large number of heterosexual HIV-AIDS cases occur along the border as well - he said many of the married men are infecting multiple women.

NYTimes - Sulzberger Jr. just sold his private jet today. The Times is predicted to close before end of this year, hopefully terminating the biased Times Syndicate reporting whih keeps appearing in the Star like journalistic melenoma. Carlos Slim, who owns Mexico's entire communicatiosn sector, just loaned the Times big bucks at 14% - So I guess Carlos will take it over and print glowing reports about Mexico ( a suggested name - the Times Telemundo Syndicate ). I notice even Maureen Dowd's own siblings think she's one can short of a sixpack. The real handwriting on the wall derives from the Wall St. Journal, now doing six issues a week, having an honest-to-God full-color sports section as of last week; that, coupled with a fair and balanced op-ed page, will turn the NYT to dust within a year. The one good thing about the NYT is that they just started putting their old issues on Google - I found my grandparents' wedding announcement from around 1910 and my father's birth announcement in 1916, as well as his picture on the front page as an ambulance driver at the 1939 Worlds Fair bombing.

Firefighters - I am fed up with the complaints of firefighters in general. While they all perpetually claim that the ones in the next town are making more than they ( especially the ones in Ventura ) and Rick Cole bleats about how hard it is to get good firefighter help; that we need to pay them more; still whenever there are casting calls for firefighter trainees ( no matter the city ) 100 show up for each opening. So where's the shortage, Rick ? Where else can you have two careers, get great pay with great retirement and have your colleagues pre-screened for pre-existing personality defects ( they have to share rooms ) ? If you ever visit the over-the-top very large and beautiful private bank near Pasadena which caters just to firefighters, you will find a veritable financial Disneyland for firemen from all over So. Calif. These guys are affluent. Ventura is one of only five cities in the entire state where the fire dept. runs the bldg. dept. - I have a feeling that has some connection to the added cost of city management here; where a high-ranking fireman/bldg. official can afford to purchase $100.00 gift certificates at a local restaurant for eight city officials at Christmas. The plan checkers have firemen's hats embroidered on their shirts. The city of Vallejo just declared bankruptcy due exclusively to the excessive and continual demands of their police and fire unions.

TB free testing: Imagine the claim of racial profiling if all illegal immigrants were forcibly screened for TB. And by the way, my wife just got TB-screened for free at a "clinicas" ( taxpayer-funded for largely Hispanic "farm" workers near Wells Road ) so there is no impediment to free TB screening in this county as suggested above. . Everybody there was visibly surprised to see a regular American-type woman ( ie one garden variety of taxpaying U.S. citizen ) in their midst, but were very cordial.

Trivial side note ( from the new WSJ ) - one of the most popular sites as reported recently - the police blotter for the Dutch Harbor, Alaska police dept., which is written by a woman with an unusual approach to the subject.

Oh goodness. My terrible triumvirate again.

I have a question for you three. And I want honesty. On most liberal-leaning blogs, conservatives are not so frequent and verbose. On Huffington and KOS they just sit around and agree with each other.

But I have conservatives sprouting like toadstools here. Why is that?

I am either doing something terribly right or terribly wrong. I have not decided yet.

Marie,

I think you're doing everything right, but with your vote. You actually moderate your blog unlike most liberals, who delete conservative posts and only keep the ones that agree with their original blog. I think that you allow differing points of view to be healthily discussed, even if I was out of line for a moment, we are still allowed our free speech. Thank you for that. I think if anything the conservatives who comment here are each self motivated, and thoughtful, even when they disagree with you. We aren't "koolaid drinkers", like most Liberals would have people believe about us, and not all liberals are communists. Let's keep the discussion going, and maybe we can come together and agree on something in the end, and make a difference. I think we are all passionate about improving our county/city/state/nation, and your blog proves that!

Keep up the hard work!

Marie would you rather we didn't post? Would you really prefer the echo chamber that is Huffington or DailyKOS?

Exactly why are we terrible and toadstools?

I was kidding, Koejos. You just got done calling another blogger a partisan hack, come on. When he's not being "partisan," he's a really nice guy. Even when he is partisan, he's fine.

Haha has spent the last 24 hours calling him other things I have had to delete because they violate my blog rules.

No, I'm glad you post. I'm just wondering why conservatives tend to post more on newspaper forums than progressives do. It's a fair question.

Marie, great job making generalizations and ad hominem attacks against the "terrible triumvirate". Does it help you to sleep at night to lump together all people who disagree with you and call them "toadstools"?

And how exactly am I suppose to respond to your posts? You continually ignore my links to information when it isn't consistent with your political philosophy, and you just change the subject whenever the facts become too inconvenient, and yet you demand that I respond to whatever information you post. Why should I engage in a one-sided conversation?

I gave you facts about how your city council approved a massive, unfunded benefit increase during a fiscal crisis and you respond with emotional arguments about the need to provide "competitive" pay and "fair" compensation. I presented you detailed information that documented how many local firefighters are making close to or over $200,000 per year and you ignored it, while simultaneously accepting at face value other information that was, at best, vague and incomplete. When I presented a detailed study that analyzed education funding, and followed it up with a well thought out argument of why it was more accurate that the numbers you were using you dismissed my study and called it just another "poll". When I provided you with undisputed evidence that there was no documented turnover problem to justify the pension increase to firefighters you simply ignored my data and quoted hearsay from a blog that had no supporting data. You rail against others for "ignoring facts and links", yet you clearly don't follow your own advise.

You may not want to talk about public safety compensation, but it is the largest part of your budget and represents the greatest threat to the long-term fiscal health of your city. The plundering of the public treasury by politically connected groups threatens all of the vital public services that you claim to value. Putting your head into the sand and trying to silence people who are willing to speak the truth won't change that reality. And you can't solve these problems by blame shifting or through endless tax increases.

Um, Bubba, that was a joke. "Comments sprouting like toadstools" is not calling people toadstools. You need to lighten up. This is just a blog; not a courtroom debate. And how does any of this sully the reputation of people who refuse to post under their own names but instead post long, name-calling diatribes at others who do?

Forgive me if my patience is wearing a bit thin over this behavior.

I very carefully respond to your posts with my own accurate information. I presented evidence to the contrary regarding your education funding studies and your tax studies and told you that nobody said there was a turnover issue with firefighters. It was a lateral recruitment issue. I have agreed with you on several issues. Pensions are a problem. But most of us feel the topic has been exhausted here by you.

At the same time you pound on pensions you won't talk about the poor regulatory oversight which caused our economy to implode. Our problems are multi-faceted, diverse and not limited to just one political philosophy.

Marie, you have never responded to my posts with accurate information. You cherry-pick your facts and ignore those that don't agree with your political philosophy. I explained the difference between my education funding numbers and yours, and rather than discussing the merits for or against those numbers you brushed aside my study as a "poll". I provided you published information that showed that the turnover rate in your fire department was just 1.5% for the past five years, yet you ignored that information and took statements by your city manager with no supporting data at face value. I have not disputed regulatory issues, but I have pointed out that both democrats and republicans have been at fault. The Bush administration policies that resulted in the mortgage crisis are the same policies that were begun under the Clinton Administration and supported by Congress. You can't place all the blame on one side of the aisle and give a free pass to the other side.

I keep bringing up the pension issue because it is the single biggest problem facing local government, whether you realize it or not. It is also relevant because of the recent 50% pension increase that your city council approved in the middle of a fiscal crisis, and the fact that much of our discussions these days surround how we should resolve the fiscal problems being faced by our state and local governments. You say that pension are a problem, yet in every instance you have made excuses defending the pension increase for firefighters. How can you say that you believe its a problem while also saying that you support increasing benefits? Yes, the problems are diverse, but if we can't come to an agreement on the big issues then there is not point in haggling over the little ones. You can't bail out a sinking ship until you first stop the leak.

Marie I guess you don't realize that political hack is not a pejorative. It describes Brian L exactly. He's an executive board member of the party. And he want's his party to win at all costs. That's the definition of political hack.

His posts should be taken with that slant in mind.

James Carville and Mary Matalin are famous political hacks and they're married to each other.

As to your wonderment about conservative posting....

You don't see conservatives on KOS or Huffington because they get deleted by the moderators. Have you ever looked at Townhall? Their bloggers are all conservatives yet there's plenty of left of center posts.

Bubba only attacks blog moderators. Crank posts from rites ignored. Talk about cherry picking.......

I was off listening to our new progressive radio show ...

OK Bubba, since you have such selective memory issues in addition to selective fact issues, I'm going to pull up old posts from me to show you what I've had to say on all these issues:

My previous reply on the firefighter recruitment issue:

And you conveniently ignored what I just posted before your post. The firefighters voted to postpone their benefit increase for years. I would ask you to provide proof of your assertions before you decide to call a city manager and fire officials' integrity into question. Since you do not live here, do not work in city hall, do not know anyone in the Ventura FD and are admittedly anti-union, and are anonymous, I think the burden of proof lies with you. Here is an administrative document that backs up what Cole said: http://www.ci.ventura.ca.us/newsmanager/articlefiles/4442-item%2003.pdf

----

My previous reply to your education numbers:

Most people think Education Week's per-pupil rankings are a more accurate measure of what is going on. They also use a wider range of data. Education Week applies the Comparable Wage Index to the data. It drops California to 47th at $7,571 per pupil, well below the national average of $8,973 per pupil. The CWI uses up-to-date information to provide a type of cost-of-living adjustment based on regional variations in salaries. Although the CWI directly considers only one source of educational expense (personnel), payroll costs constitute more than three-quarters of school district expenditures. So I don't think we're going to agree on rankings. Overall, Education Week gives us a grade of C but an F in school funding.

---

My lengthy reply to your tax study was over on Brian's blog and was a victim of Brian's comments malfunction. But, as I recall, you posted a study on CA personal income tax and left out the many other taxes we pay. I pointed out the California Budget Project study that Steve Lopez quoted was much more complete and showed that there are tax areas where Californians pay less than other states, such as property taxes.

I've said pensions are a problem, but nobody ever answers me when I ask if the $100 billion in special interest tax credits we've handed out to multinational corporations are doing their job. Or how about the bailout money for banks, Wall Street and auto makers?

You ignore all that and attack teachers, firefighters and police officers. And as someone just pointed out, you ignore the blatant attacks from your right-leaning comrades and instead pummel me for saying their comments are sprouting like toadstools.

Selective outrage, thy name is Bubba.

And P.S. to Koejos, the term "hack" is never meant in a nice way.

hacks- Koejos is right though. And I don't think anyone wants to be very nice to Brian right now, except for the sheep who follow him...right off the cliff.

I wasn't surprised there wasn't any backing for the HIV story.

This blog is group therapy for conservatives. They come here to yell at "Liberal Lakin" instead of holding their leaders accountable.

HaHa

KoeJos is being nice enough he is just stating his opinion right or wrong. We are all partisan here. You are the only one calling people names, having your posts removed and being told to behave by the moderator. Besides I am a big boy and can take it. I don't mind if he calls me a political hack. As Marie said, "When he's not being "partisan," he's a really nice guy. Even when he is partisan, he's fine."

KoeJos

I just spoke with a regular contributor to the DailyKos and he is going to educate you about conservative comments on the site and how they are handled. If people are respectful and behave their posts will stay as with most blogs.

Koejos,

If you knew anything about DailyKos, you would know that moderators don't delete comments: the COMMUNITY does. Users can rate comments as hide-worthy; if there's a 2-1 ratio of hide ratings to recommends, the comment gets hidden.

And you know what else? Every trusted user on the site (thousands of us) can still see your ridiculous comments on the site; it's just the casual user who can't. And that's not to censor you, just so the noise to signal ratio doesn't prevent the constructive exchange of ideas.

Mods censoring comments is something mostly done by righties, not lefties.

uhhhh...haha? Who's going off the cliff, exactly? Your party followed George Bush, Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh right off the political cliff and have gotten walloped the last two elections. And you're going to lose more senate seats in 2010, though you might keep it even in the House. Maybe.

Your ideas are bankrupt. Supply-side economics has been proven to be a fraud and a farce, just like "intelligent design" and "abstinence education" and the "Laffer Curve" and just about every other rightwing fiction on the planet. All you have left is blind ideology, greed, and xenophobia.

Good f'ing riddance. If it weren't for the 2/3 rule, your tiny minority would have no influence in this state whatsoever.

HaHa

Have you ever commented on the DailyKos, and if so, what happened?

Hey.... I want the "hide" function, too! Hey Star tech guys! Pretty please!

good bye Marie - it was fun

I'm a cynic... keep telling me how wrong I am, and time will tell. I do hope you guys are right. Famous one party governments: CHINA, N.KOREA, USSR, NAZI GERMANY, FASCIST ITALY, FASCIST SPAIN, UZBEKISTAN, TAJIKISTAN, IMPERIAL JAPAN, VIETNAM, VENEZUELA, and CUBA. They are doing great, aren't they?

Debate is the fundamental idea behind democracy. If you're scared of democracy, move to one of the countries I listed. I think all of you ganging up on me is proof that you can't handle truth, unless it is your version. What names have I called you? Please Copy and Paste here. I'm a moderator on many blogs, one of them might be DAILYKOS, but you wouldn't know because No one has asked me what else I post under. I have only had 3 posts I know of that have ever been "edited" or "deleted" on any blogs including my own.

BRIAN, you are a hack, and a misinformed one at that. Don't worry, Marie, he doesn't mind me saying that. He just said so, He's a big boy, but still won't ask me any questions.

As far as the metaphorical cliff, The political pendulum will swing back towards the right. I'm scared that the citizens will be so upset with the left that we will elect someone on the polar opposite side on the Right, and that kind of government is going to only get worse.

And it looks like you lost Koejos. I'm sure he'll cry himself to sleep tonight knowing that you guys are like brick walls with sound proofing equipment surrounding them, but I will miss his accurate statistics and arguments, even while he faced the denial of respect by most of you. That took some mettle to stay as long as he did. Now you guys can just be your sounding board to bounce your liberal talking points off each other, and then pat yourselves on the back for being in the majority.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best. You all want to hope for the best, while you plan for the best, and you're in for a surprise. Things go wrong sometimes... what is that line... The best laid plans of Mice and Men...

They've already realized that the budget they just passed isn't going to work in a year, because of a decrease in revenue, even with the tax hikes, so we will be back at this argument again. The only difference is I might be in Sacramento arguing to the legislature, while you are all here on Marie's blog debating why Teachers' pensions are more important than the drop out rate.

Marie,

The star as a TECH dept? Aren't you guys going out of business soon? And Where is Katie? I miss her.

Why do conservatives post more on newspaper blogs than "progressives" ?

answer: because most editors such as Joe Howry of the Star do not as readily post political views alien to their own - this way we know the recordation will be accurate and honest - both sides need to know the whole story. Conservatives simply have better manners.

"fact check":

"Why are conservatives ...yelling at Marie .......instead of holding their (conservative) leaders together....."

The difference between conservatives and liberals is that politics is a religion to liberals ( the Democrat Party is more important to it than the welfare of the country - they do not generally attend church or temple as frequebtly as conservatives - politics is their "church") and the country is more important than the party to conservatives ( who do tend to attend church more frequently). Hence, as pointed out by Mark Levin ( a constitutional lawyer and talk show host ) today, conservatives adhere to their core beliefs ( the pursuit of liberty ) instead of to whatever some "leader" may say is the most expedient ingredient necessary to win at all costs. That is what Reagan did and won. Conservatives tend to be real patriots in the best sense - liberals tend to be interested in winning at any cost in the best sense - witness the NEA, university faculty makeup.

David Atkins ( whomever this alleged 'person' may be ):

You seem to enjoy throwing out comments with no meat or definition attached to them - sort of sophomoric - such as the use of phrases like " your ideas are bankrupt" ( kindly define what you mean), "supply side economics has been proven to be a 'fraud' ( by whom ?)and a 'farce' "( and how ?), "...(assorted) rightwing fiction...." (define "rightwing fictions"), "... blind ideology, greed and xenophobia..."(please describe so intelligent readers can understand your incredible intellect, such as it is) . You go on to say "good f'ing riddance...." (in reference to members of the party you apparently disaagree with ) . I suggest that you grow up, learn to be polite in public or get the (?) off this blog.

Juan,

Did you really just attack the patriotism of people that don't agree with you in one paragraph and then in the next attack someone for not being polite?

You really somehow think a foul word is more foul than your McCarthy quoting ( "Democrat Party") patriotism attacking, fiction?

No, I was quoting a renowned constitutional lawyer on the subject - as previoulsy stated.

Always changing your nom de plume and looking for loopholes - nothing of substance.

Juan stated:

"Conservatives tend to be real patriots in the best sense".

Juan does the same apply to progressives? Most readers would assume you think your ideology is supported by true patriots and your side is more patriotic.

That isn't a loophole to directly quote you.

But I get it. You think it is wrong to ever use the F word because it is impolite. But saying that the other side isn't patriotic is polite. Say hi to Miss Manners for me.

There is a famous quote:

Socialists are only progressives who don't follow the speed limit.

Look it up and see who said that one!

HaHa

In a post that Marie removed you called me "Garbage" for one. I don't know of anyone calling for a one party system in this.

One Party? No party has been outlawed, yours just made itself irrelevant by being corrupt, trashing the constitution, bankrupting the nation and starting unnecessary wars while ignoring real threats. They haven't been banned just voted out of office. Republicans need to look at their policies and behavior and figure out a way to give electorate what it wants. But, right now from what I see they are in for fifty years in the wilderness.

Here is a question for you since you seem to want it, why do you think the voters are so upset with the Republicans right now.

I didn't claim the party was banned, but you want to live in a one party government, so I gave you a list. voters are upset with republicans because most voters are idiots, and I am nice when I say that. Your party even encourages non citizen voting, who don't speak English. You are personified garbage, and it spews from your keyboard, and that isn't name calling, that is fact stating. If my party is the "corrupt" one of the two, what is acorn? Or union kick backs? Have you ever been to Chicago? JFK started Vietnam... Does that satisfy you?

I'm not even a republican, but I sure do agree with them more than crazy socialists. Attacking me won't solve the problem, first because you don't know who I am, and secondly because that isn't how healthy democratic debates should be. I wish you luck with your ecotopia.

HaHa,

Where have I ever said I want one party government? Your list of foreign governments means what? In case you haven't noticed China is in fact doing great financially, they hold more than a trillion dollars of our debt and they are voicing no confidence in us being able top pay it back. I don't support their government in anyway. The biggest threat to our two party system was the Bush administrations efforts to install a Unitary Executive, better know as a Dictator.

Your claim that the democratic party supports non-citizen voting is an outright lie. No where is there a requirement that you need to speak English to vote.

Lets talk corruption, Jack Abramoff, Congressman Duke Cunnigham, Congressman Tom Delay, Senator Ted Stevens, The there are the sex fiends Mark Folley and David Vitter.

I am sure you don't understand what the Acorn issue was. There was no voter fraud at all. There were false registrations done by people who were being paid per application who padded their numbers to make a couple of bucks. Micky Mouse was never going to be able to vote by name.

If you want to talk real voter fraud lets talk about the slamming done in this county by Young Political Majors. In case you missed that one. The company was hired by Insurance Commissioner Steve Pozner and paid per application to register Republicans. They engaged in "Slamming" which is changing a persons party registrations without their permissions. The head of the company Mark Jacoby was arrested last fall for registering to vote in California at an address that he did not live at. That is true voter fraud.

Americas involvement in Vietnam started in 1950 and grew under President Eisenhower as well as under Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon.

Claims that Democrats is Propaganda put out by the Republicans and scare the Voters. It is BS and if you had any brains you would know it is true. It is the Republicans that dool out the Kool-Aid and slurp it up.

I am not attacking you anymore that you are me. Your policies are the problem.

HaHa,
Sorry for my Lysdexia in the previous post.

I had meant to say Claims that Democrats are socialists is Propaganda put out by the Republicans to scare the Voters. Fear is the only thing they have to use. It is BS and if you had any brains you would know it is true. It is the Republicans that dole out the Kool-Aid and slurp it up.

Brian

First I have to apologize because It was the post before yours that read: "Good f'ing riddance. If it weren't for the 2/3 rule, your tiny minority would have no influence in this state whatsoever." And I lumped you into that because I was being attacked from all angles, I'm sorry. You never said you wanted to live in a one party state. But I think you might, especially when you refer to it as "irrelevant".

Acorn didn't commit voter fraud. No one voted illegally because of them. I have run voter registration campaigns for money before, and I know exactly what they were doing. It was a continuing charade from start to finish and our President knew it was going on and continued to fund them. They also registered athletes and stars in Vegas, even though they were not residents, and would just put the address of the hotel. President Hussein Obama II knew about this.

You are arguing trivial facts. For one, YPM wasn't forcing anyone to change their party and there have been no charges of that in the court. Each registrant even filled out a "I consent to changing my party form". Mark Jacoby was arrested for living out of state and owning a company that paid people to register people in California. It is illegal in this state to register anyone unless you are a California resident. That is the charge he is facing, so who is drinking the koolaid there? I don't like Jacoby, I would rather have people campaigning than run the voter registration drives. There are so many DTS out there, that in the end, it doesn't matter what the "numbers" are in a lot of Ventura County, and SD 19.

As far as as voting in general. One of the requirements to become a citizen is to Learn English. Second, if you are born here, then it is illegal to not attend school where they teach English as a class throughout every year of school. Voters should be able to read write and understand English, and that isn't racist, that is pragmatism.

We won in Korea, before JFK started the escalation of police activities in Vietnam.

There is no Unitary Executive.

Calling out names of Republicans is great, but what about Grey Davis or Bill Clinton, those weren't senators or congressmen. And there are many democrats over the years that have been in trouble for something. I didn't say that the republicans were not corrupt, I was just saying that the Democrat party is more corrupt in a dirtier way, and in my opinion less moral.

Call a spade a spade. If a progressive seeks higher taxes and more government involvement then in the ideal progressive government would take care of all of our needs, and deprive us of liberty, like in those countries I mentioned. If you want to live in China where the government has 1 trillion US dollars but the citizen has very little, if any. Be my guest I will pay for your first month's rent on the apartment the government issues you. I hope you don't mind the black skies and smog from the industry there, or the severe punishments for political disagreements.

We founded this nation on liberty, and if that is what you believe in, then you should want government to intrude on your life and the lives of others as little as possible. There are a lot of programs that could be run privately, but the government has stepped in and ran it into the ground with their lack of efficiency. The government doesn't know best all the time, and competition creates innovation, and a better product. Are all democrats socialists? No. But many are at the abstract level.

As for the Koolaid. Do you really believe I am just blindly following the opinions of others, or are you going to give me the credit I deserve, for making an info00000000 opinions exote? This is a political/news blog, and not a radio call in show, and I obviously don't agree with a lot of opinions here so where am I drinking from?

Marie,

I’ve been away for a few days, but I have to say that it’s amazing to me that you keep recyling the same talking points over and over and calling them “facts�. A great example is your administrative document that supposedly “backs up what Cole said�. The only information contained in that report are general statements that are not backed up by any data. How did your city council conclude that “The City’s relatively low pay and benefits, especially for Fire Department personnel, has made recruiting and retaining top people increasingly difficult�. WHERE IS THE DATA THAT BACKS UP THAT STATEMENT? I have already provided data that shows a turnover rate of just 1.5%, yet you ignore the actual data and keep falling back on a document that provides no real justification for its conclusions. The document implies a recruitment problem because of six vacancies, but we also know that your city was unable to fill existing vacancies because of a LACK OF FUNDING, not because there was any problem recruiting employees. You city went as far as imposing the controversial 911 fee in order to generate the funding for these positions, yet instead they ended up approving unfunded benefit increases to make it even more expensive to hire employees, which is counter-productive. Most of the document give details of how other cities offer higher pay and benefits, but no real data that backs up the claim that matching the ludicrous pay and benefits paid by other cities is even necessary to recruit and retain quality employees. They even go on to argue that reducing the (nonexistant) retention problem will save money since it costs $100,000 to train a new firefighter, but they ignore that they are budgeting MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in increased benefit costs to save a few hundred thousand dollars. That is LUNACY! This was just another giveaway of tax dollars to a politicially connected special interest group.

I have to ask you, why is it that you demand years of detailed environmental studies, traffic studies, community impact studies, planning reviews, community feedback, etc to justify the construction of a WalMart store, yet you have no problem with your City Council spending millions of taxpayer dollars on a giveaway of public funds with no data to back up their arguments? Why do you refuse to hold them accountable for a decision that has contributed to a serious deterioration of your city’s finances, and has directly led to the slashing of funds for programs for the elderly, disabled, homeless and poor in your community? When it was recently revealed that your city has tens of millions of dollars in unfunded pension liabilities you seem to shrug your shoulders as if it’s no big deal.

And BTW, granting firefighters a massive increase in pension benefits and then having them, in turn, offer to delay receiving said benefit IS NOT A CUT! What sacrifice have they made? Clerks are taking a 5% reduction in pay, meanwhile firefighters get to keep 100% of their pay and still look forward to a 50% INCREASE in their pension benefits in two years. Where is the sacrifice?

And you are now saying that “pensions are a problem�, yet you keep defending massive pension increases. That is a contradiction. But instead of discussing these inconsistencies you continually try to change the topic to corporate tax breaks, Wall Street, or other scapegoats that you seem to randomly throw out to obscure the real issue.

On the next point, your Education Week information uses fictitious “adjusted� numbers rather that the real numbers that shows that California ranks 26th in per pupil spending. You keep defending these “adjusted� numbers, but when I asked whether large corporations based in California should also be able to publish their revenues and profits using the same type of adjustment methodology you didn’t give a response. Why is it that the teacher’s unions get away with using numbers that are deliberately misleading, yet nobody else gets to play by the same rules? At the very least, whenever these numbers are used it should be stated that they are adjusted, yet we know that in practice that is not the case. The fact that “adjusted� numbers are commonly substituted for real numbers with no explanation gives a false impression to the public of actual funding. And again, you keep demanding that others respond to the information you provide, yet when I presented detailed information on this topic you simply ignored my data and kept calling it a “poll�.

I also love how you resort to the tired attacks against those who speak out against special interest influence and irresponsible government spending by branding anybody who opposes unfunded giveaways of tax dollars as anti-teacher, anti-cop and anti-firefighter. Way to try to shut down the debate when the facts become a little too inconvenient. At least I’m fighting to preserve scarce tax dollars for programs that benefit the disadvantaged and poorest citizens, and to try to minimize the tax burden on hard working citizens that are struggling in a difficult economy. By contrast you are willing to allow programs for the poor, disabled, elderly and homeless to be slashed in order to fund massive increases in pension benefits for already highly compensated public employees.

Bubba .... the whole reason I reposted is that you told me I never responded. Just because you disagree with the highly respected data that Education Week publishes because it doesn't fit your personal political philosophy is no reason to tell me I didn't respond.

BTW, please find where I dismissed anything you wrote as just "a poll."

Once again, I never mentioned anything about retention. They told me they were having lateral recruitment difficulties because they require specific paramedic training.

The firefighters have offered to give up their pension increases until things get better. Our police officers have offered to reduction in leave-time accrual equal to a 5 percent pay cut. Your argument is very moot now. Our city is working terribly hard to redesign and cut. Please give them some credit instead of droning on and on about an argument that no longer exists

Have your police officers in Simi Valley offered to give anything up? They got big raises last summer. Your city contracts with County Fire which pays its firefighters much more than we pay ours. We save $10 million a year by not contracting with county fire.

Why don't you ever mention that?

I do find your selective outrage very strange. It's not so much changing the subject as it is finding you perspective. It's firefighters you are complaining about, not AIG fatcats getting bonuses with federal bailout money.

It is not moot. You are in the midst of a fiscal crisis brought on by the irresponsibility of your city leaders. Funny how you have no problem holding GWB accountable for 8 years of decisions, but somehow you refuse to hold your local elected officials responsible for decisions made months ago. And I doubt you would be OK with corporate CEOs of companies getting bailed out by the federal government giving themselves a 50% increase in pay, and then offering to help out by deferring their pay raises for two years. That is essentially what you are accepting.

And stop trying to change the argument. I have already spoken out against the pay raise for SVPD, and I have consistently opposed irresponsible government spending. I have also consistently opposed federal bailouts of failed companies. At least I am consistent. Once again you're trying to change the topic because the facts are too inconvenient. You refuse to acknowledge that the pension increases given to firefighters are resulting in cuts to services for the poor and disadvantaged in your community. But you seem more than willing to sell out the homeless, elderly, disabled, and poor in order to pad the pension checks of some of the highest paid public employees in the nation. You may not like what I have to say, but at least it's the truth.

And when it comes to selective outrage, thy name is Marie.

We are in the midst of a fiscal crisis brought on by a recession/depression. All cities are cutting their budgets now. Our neighbor to the north, Santa Barbara, is cutting its budget by $9 million.

I would agree with you EXCEPT that there are no firefighter pension raises now so how is that cutting into our budget? Our firefighter pensions are now lower than every single agency in the area. Our city made it a priority to preserve services for the poor and disadvantaged. We don't do a lot of that, anyway. That is primarily a state/federal function.

Again, we have AIG bailout bonuses, at least one unnecessary war that has cost Californians alone $76 billion, massive financial meltdown brought on by greedy lenders and irresponsible fiscal policy under the GOP watch and you are in blind outrage because our firefighters -- who risk their lives for us -- gave up their pension increase?

Bubba, excuse me if I say you seem wildly obsessed here. It is the one and only thing you post about.

To summarize:

Bubba blames the city of Ventura and doesn't want to discuss how the Republican Party under Bush's leadership did serious damage to our economy.

Marie is bored with Firefighter pensions and doesn't think it would be much of an issue in better economic times.

The rest of us would like to see a blog entry between a city leader and Bubba Kidd discussing the pension issue. Cage match style. At the end there will be a poll. If Bubba kid loses then they can never bring up the issue again. But if the city official loses they will send Bubba Kidd an autographed firefighter helmet and post a link on the city's website to the debate with the title " City addresses pension issue with a critic".

What say you two?

GET IN THE RING!

Stop making excuses. The recession is only exposing your city's irresponsible fiscal management, just like it exposed Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme. But it doesn't change the underlying facts that they have been making decisions for many years that have led to tens of millions of dollars in unfunded pension liabilities. And even after the economy started weakening they continued to spend money they didn't have, and now they want to dig even deeper into the pockets of citizens who are already overtaxed and losing their jobs and their homes.

You just don't get it. There was no reason for the pension increase, and, more importantly, there was no money to pay for it. Just because other cities made stupid decisions did not mean that your city officials had to follow suit. In the same way, just because your neighbor is losing their home because they borrowed money that they can no longer afford to repay doesn't mean you are obligated to do the same. It is common sense.

And just because the firefighters are not yet drawing these increased pension benefits does not mean that the city is not responsible for funding them now. Required pension contributions are calculated based on assumptions regarding life expectancy, investment returns, and benefit levels. Even a future promised increase in benefits will trigger an increase in contribution requirements, so your city has to pay for this increase now even if the actual benefits aren't collected for a few years. It's basically the same as purchasing an annuity. So you are wrong if you think this is saving your city money since the future scheduled pension increase will have an immediate impact on contribution requirements.

And once again I'm not going to allow you to change the subject so that you can just let this important issue slip between the cracks. You keep avoiding the real issues. Again, you have a long memory when it comes to GWB and other republicans, but when it comes to your local city council you keep giving them a free pass and trying to change the topic. You demand detailed studies to justify the construction of a WalMart, but you don't demand the same when your City Council decides to frivolously spend millions of local taxpayer dollars. You now say that "pensions are a problem", yet you continue to defend pension increases that threaten to bankrupt your city.

The reason why I won't let it go away is because the financial condition of your city will continue to worsen because of these types of irresponsible decisions. Your city is already in a hole and these additional commitments will cost millions more and result in even deeper program cuts and layoffs. And I can already predict that you will then try to cast the blame everywhere else but where it really belongs. And when you try to make arguments about the need to increase taxes I'm going to remind you of how you ended up in your situation.

And why is it that you can be obsessed with Tony Strickland or education funding, but I cannot show the same passion in fighting against fiscal mismanagement? Seems to me that you are just as "wildly obsessed" with certain subjects. These are important issues and people should become informed because it affects all of us. I would argue that our issues are related, since budget busting pension costs impact the state budget and make it even more difficult to find the necessary funding for education. If one group takes a bigger slice of the pie for themselves it means less for everybody else.

Mr. Appleseed,

I'm perfectly happy to have a cage match with Rick Cole, but I don't think he would have the guts to face me.

Bubba, I need to remind you that this is a thread on education, not city finances. So you are continually off topic. I'm not avoiding, just sick of responding to the same thing over and over from you. At some point I'm going to start enforcing my off-topic rules to give other bloggers a chance to participate in the discussion.

Why is Ventura any more fiscally irresponsible than any other public agency which gives its employees pensions? We pay our folks less than all other surrounding cities, PLUS we don't do lifetime medical benefits like others do. So, since the pension issue is off the table now, why pick on Ventura which offers its employees less? We are not funding any pension increase now whatsoever in the current proposed budget.

I think the real issue here is every time I put up a post on the Stricklands you feel like you need to beat me over the head with something, but the pension issue isn't something I'm going to passionately defend. I do honor our firefighters and police officers, though. The Wal-Mart issue doesn't really fire me up, either, and I can't think of when I've "demanded studies."

What programs have we sacrificed that assisted the poor? The homeless outreach position is the only thing I can think of and they said they will be getting grant funding for that one.

The really IRONIC thing here is that I am part of the solution, not the problem. I do tons of private fundraising for public causes. I helped raise over $100,000 for the schools last year, work on a historical project which the city has never been able to fund, raise money for a public park and am now involved with setting up a non-profit group to raise money for our city's cultural activities and libraries. I don't get a public pension nor does anyone in my family. So this obsession you have with attacking me on this issue is really weird, quite frankly.

The pension issue is not "off the table". Your city council past an increase in benefits to firefighters and you keep wanting to give them a free pass instead of holding them accountable. Why is it that you complain about the ongoing costs of the Iraq war, but you don't want to talk about pension costs? Using your own logic the cost of the war would be "off the table" since the decisions were already made. Why is it that you demand years of studies to justify a single Walmart store, yet you don't demand the same when your City Council decides to commit millions of local taxpayer dollars to a budget busting pension increase?

And stop trying to justify reckless fiscal decisions by pointing to other cities who are even worse. I could point out that the City of Vallejo has even higher pay and benefits for their firefighters, but as we all know those decisions led to a municipal bankruptcy. The City of San Diego has even more generous benefits, and they are also facing bankruptcy in the face of a $2.3 billion (and growing) unfunded pension liability. Comparing the decisions of your city leaders with the stupid decisions made by other elected leaders is setting the bar pretty low.

You seem willing to trade away programs for the needy in exchange for pension benefits for already highly compensated employees, regardless of the fact that those decisions are, quite frankly, heartless and immoral. There is a direct relationship between these pension giveaways and resulting cuts to programs for the elderly, disabled, poor and homeless, which your city is already enacting. When you give millions more to firefighters the money has to come from somewhere else. Your city was already in a fiscal hole BEFORE THE RECESSION, as they were already begging the taxpayers for more money through sales tax initiatives and the silly 911 fee. Yet in spite of the fact that they have been crying poor for years they spent money they did't have. It is foolish to let your City Council get away with this.

Don't forget that these pension costs are going to rise substantially higher due to investment losses. These cost increases have not yet been incurred because of a lag in the way pension contributions are calculated, which means that the worst is yet to come. All of this is going to blow a huge hole in your city's budget. I've been saying all along that we have a pension bubble and the real cost of these pensions are much higher than advertised.

Wow, such anger and passion directed at someone who is completely uninvolved in this issue.

Yet you continually give others a pass for everything they do to screw over our hard-working folks.

Please point out to me the programs for the poor we have traded away that don't have grant funding identified.

I just got done telling you that I don't feel particularly passionate about this issue. I never said I supported the pension increase. I spoke before City Council and asked for our unions to do givebacks. I was the only citizen in our city to do this. (And it was unnecessary because they were already in talks then. Give these folks some credit! They want to save jobs, too!) I even posted an entry about this. You can go back and look through our old City Council meeting videos. They are sitting on the city's website.

Please list for me one other city in the area right now whose unions have voted for givebacks like Ventura's did. This has resulted in millions in savings. Has your Simi Valley done this? Oxnard? They are $6 million in the hole, have better benefits and pay for firefighters and passed a sales tax increase. Even our teacher's unions haven't done givebacks.

Your extreme obsessive anger at me is horribly misplaced. I don't really think it has anything to do with pensions. It has to do with my ideology and trying to change the subject of a thread and you will be in continual one-note attack mode as long as I write this blog, just to harass me.

There is no new information to share here. Until there is, I am indeed bored with this conversation, as the blogger above so wisely pointed out. I don't plan to respond further unless you have something new you want to share or discuss.

Marie,
You rock!

So according to you those that don't go along with unnecessary, unfunded giveaways of local tax dollars are somehow trying to "screw over hard-working folks". Never mind the fact that your city is making promises with money that doesn't exist. Nice.

Regarding the cuts in programs for the needy, your city has already already outlined plans to eliminate a counselor position that assists homeless individuals. Even if they get temporary grant funding that is only a short-term solution. They have also announced that senior center hours and services would be reduced. It seems that taking care of seniors and homeless people are less important to your city leaders than funding benefits for already highly compensated public employees. And I have no doubt that programs and services to the elderly, homeless, disabled, and poor will continue to be slashed as your budget situation deteriorates, while your elected leaders will fight to protect early retirement and pensions for a select few.

You keep stating that your city unions have been making concessions, but as I keep pointing out - FIREFIGHTERS ACCEPTED A BENEFIT INCREASE WORTH MILLIONS AND HAVE GIVEN NOTHING BACK. Delaying the increase is not a giveback. It's like AIG executives giving themselves million dollar bonuses and then offering to delay when they receive them. Low paid clerks are taking 5% pay cuts, yet firefighters are keeping 100% of their pay and will still get a 50% INCREASE in their already generous pension benefits. THAT IS NOT A GIVEBACK.

I think that your city's finances are precarious, which makes these giveaways all the more outrageous. I've already spoken out against the pay raises for SVPD, and I think it's unconscionable that they are handing out large pay raises to police in the middle of an economic downturn while other city staff are getting pink slips. This issue is the same whether it is Simi Valley or Ventura. But since your blog is focused on your city I'm discussing your city's finances, which is as it should be. I've already made my views perfectly clear on Brian's blog many, many times.

Funny how you routinely lump me in with misbehaving bloggers and radical right-wing extremists, while repeatedly trying to characterize me as some sort of cop/firefighter/teacher hating radical, and in the next breath complain that I'm displaying an "extreme obsessive anger" designed to "harass" you. That's pretty funny.

I said I wasn't going to respond but I have to: On my blog and others you routinely ignore any controversial issue favored by Republicans that sucks tax dollars from our citizens. That's what I meant by screwing over hard-working folks. You intentionally misrepresented what I said. How many tax dollars will it take to fix the messes created by Bush's unnecessary war, horrible lack of fiscal oversight, not to mention Republican pork? Our underlying economic troubles are very relevant to this conversation.

But you have posted 50-plus times on the same now moot, small-town union issue to the point of sheer nausea. You continue to berate these hard-working folks for not giving up enough while overlooking that they willingly came to the table and made concessions during a period where few are. Our Ventura firefighters currently have the lowest pension benefits of any city of our size in the state.

I think they took the homeless outreach position out specifically because they knew they could get grant funding for it instead. Many things we're reducing here will be taken care of through volunteer efforts and grants. I plan on helping with this.

Yes, Bubba, you take over every thread with this same issue and stop everyone else from participating. This is unfair. 50-plus posts on the same union-related subject from you with no new information presented. One can only guess at your motives, but at this point it is beyond over the top. I haven't lumped you in with anyone. You are in a class by yourself.

Maybe my offer wasn't expensive enough.

Bubba if you lose you will pledge to speak out at a Simi Valley council meeting taking them to task for raising police salaries.

Deal?

Marie,

What say you? Call in a favor from a council member friend of yours.

I thought you weren't going to respond?

Stop trying to change the subject. We're talking about your local city budget and the irresponsible fiscal decisions being made by your City Council. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with the topic. GWB did not force your city to give away an unnecessary, unfunded pension increase in the middle of a recession. Repeating the same talking points over and over does not make your diversionary tactics relevant.

And please stop repeating that "they willingly came to the table and made concessions". I've already said that the real heroes in this fiscal crisis are the clerks who sacrificed 5% of their pay to help out the city. FIREFIGHTERS HAVE GIVEN NOTHING BACK!! They are still getting 100% of their pay and are still scheduled to receive a 50% INCREASE in their pension benefits. It's like AIG executives showering themselves with million dollar bonuses and then only offering to delay when they receive them. What a farce! These folks are among the highest compensated public employees in your city and in the nation, yet clerks making just a fraction of the money are the ones making the sacrifice. Heaven forbid that a firefighter take a 5% pay cut.

Mr. Appleseed,

And if Mr. Cole loses what does he offer in exchange?

Here's an idea. If Cole loses he speaks out at a Simi Valley council meeting taking them to task for raising police salaries.

Deal?

I thought this was a entry about education. Why is this Bubba monopolizing the conversation about city firefighters? It sounds like he's trying to change the subject.