The current Victoria Corridor plan would not allow Wal-mart to build anything bigger than the existing K-mart building is now. (100,000 square feet.) I have been told the new code for the Victoria Corridor is being written right now and will come for council's approval soon.

While Wal-mart can certainly submit the plans shown here, something that big would likely not get approval under the new rules. The new code is being written to conform to the city's General Plan, mapped out in 2005 by our citizens and city staff, which specifically discourages big-box development for Victoria (over 90,000 square feet).

But, as I have said on numerous posts elsewhere, if Wal-mart wanted to move into the existing K-mart space, there is not much the city can legally do to prevent them from doing so.

For a really excellent discussion on this issue, I encourage everyone to visit Bill Fulton's blog: http://fulton4ventura.blogspot.com/search/label/Victoria%20Corridor

City Manager Rick Cole also has an excellent discussion on this very topic on his blog:
http://www.cityofventura.net/cmblog/2007/09/walmart-again.html

The city council wants to keep WalMart out to keep Ventura consumers paying more to their political interests.

WalMart saves $2,500 a year for families. The Ventura city council wants to make their local command economy something only people with political connections can participate in.

It's time for a change.

Save Money,

Did you read anything I posted above you? If Wal-mart wants to move into the existing space -- and they very well might -- there is very little the city can do legally to stop that.

The city is merely working to make sure the Victoria Corridor conforms to our General Plan. If you would like to read the plan for Victoria, go here:
http://www.cityofventura.net/victoria

Your "command economy" rhetoric does nothing to add rational discussion to this topic. We all have our own opinions on whether or not Wal-mart would be good for Ventura. In the end, though, we need to consider the facts.

Despite the cloak and dagger dramatics, these "plans" have been posted on the City's website and reported in the newspapers.

The "secret plans" are a concept that Walmart showed the City back in June. They reflect an attempt to meet the new proposed Victoria code. In some ways (reducing surface parking, introducing a green space into a bleak shopping center, and reducing the impact of a long blank wall by putting other stores on the front) it is encouraging. But the informal feedback from City staff was that the concept was a non-starter because of the size of the footprint. As anyone reading the newspapers knows, Walmart is in the midst of a major corporate rethinking about its expansion plans, store sizes and sustainability practices. They have never submitted a formal application to the City.

The City has been consistent now for two years:

Walmart (or any other tenant) is free to move into the current K-Mart when the lease expires.

If Walmart (or any other tenant) wants to replace the existing building, it must respect the clear language in the General Plan regarding the Victoria Corridor which is to discourage single-use big box retail stores because of the traffic patterns they generate.

We now have a draft plan which is under legally required environmental review. As drafted, the concept plan would conform because of its size.

Both sides in this debate continue to mischaracterize the stance of the staff and City Council. The City is neither for or against Walmart as a company. We have consistently sought to apply the language of the 2005 General Plan to ensure that Victoria is enhanced as an important jobs and retail corridor, not a strip of big box stores choked with traffic.

That's what the General Plan calls for and that is what we continue to work toward.

Rick Cole
City Manager

Thank you for your thoughtful comments, Rick. It's nice to see you in here.

K Mart failed in that spot and the city position to WalMart is go into the unmarketable spot, but if you want to improve, you must abide by our 4,000 page general plan that outlaws single use "big box" stores.

City position: "We aren't against WalMart, just all stores that have their same characteristics." Wouldn't that mean you're against WalMart too?

So long as WalMart behaves like open space, the city is willing to allow WalMart to come in.

Save us the propaganda...

I'm glad to hear that the City is responding favorably to WalMart's development plan for the K-Mart center, as per Rick Cole's comments. Rick's correct, all this hullabaloo about WalMart being the devil incarnate by the Livable Ventura and the union extremists, ignores the fact that they have a legal right to bring a store into this space.

I think the current City Council has done a pretty good job of not letting these groups lure them into the anti-WalMart rhetoric. I think only one of the challengers has spoken rationally about WalMart's legal rights to this location, despite the hype.

It is time for the City, and Wal-Mart's lone supporter to WAKE UP.

Wal-Mart does NOT save $2500.00 a year, it simply shifts those costs to the Cities, Counties and States General Fund. This mentality of "save a buck today to heck with tomorrow" is what has us in this mess we are in now.

Also, K-Mart didn't fail locally. The entire chain is in bankruptcy.

And due respect for Mr. Fulton, but if Wal-Mart submits plans while no ordinance is in place, and you later place an ordnance you can, and will be sued clear back to the dark ages.

WAKE UP!

If it takes teams of lawyers from a multinational corporation to figure out the City of Ventura's rules and regulations, wonder what it's like for the average business owner?

As the packed town hall meeting the other day demonstrated, we DONT WANT THIS WAL MART. If Mr. Fulton, Mr. Cole or anyone else for that matter were serious about opposing Wal-Mart, they would pass laws that would stop them.

Just more talk from an arrogant politician who is trying to please both sides of the fence. Some of these folks need to be removed from office.

Yes it does save families $2,500 dollars a year. Maybe, you should read a little more.

East German: I believe the idea of coming up with a General Plan for the city and then writing the code to conform to it will make it easier for developers to go into a site and see right away what they can and can't do there.

Rick,

Thanks for shedding more light on the issue. I didn't say these plans were top secret nor did I say anything about my opinion on the subject. To be clear the words in italics are from the person that e-mailed them in.

I agree that some of these folks need to go - Bill Fulton and Carl Morehouse, particularly. They have done nothing but destroy our City's future by alienating any retailer that wants to do something worthwhile in the City. Retailers are an important component of any economic development strategy. I say throw the bums out!!!

What do you think will happen to Trader Joe's, Ralph's and Long's if WalMart does in fact go in @ the KMart site?

It might take a few years - but eventually they will ALL be gone from the area with these jobs having been replaced with low paying jobs that will inevitably end up costing the taxpayers more money in areas of social services.

Hi, "it is obvious,"

I am wondering what laws you would suggest passing that would stop Wal-mart from moving into the existing K-mart space?

We already effectively have a "big box law" in place for that section of Ventura with the new code.

Here is an interesting article on the Huffington Post, which talks about what other cities have done and the legal rulings surrounding these actions:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/california-supreme-court-_b_51430.html

Hi Marie - I think that an actual ordinance could/should/is (?) be formulated and passed by City Council to prevent big boxes from coming in and destroying the area (whether it be just along the Victoria Cooridor or include all of Ventura).

Do we know if any of the candidates for City Council would support something like that??

What will happen to Ralphs, Trader Joes, and Longs if WalMart comes in?

Well, prices will go down for the consumer. Heaven forbid your sacred cows would actually have to compete and reduce prices.

Of course, if consumers did not like WalMart they wouldn't go there and you would not need any laws.

What next? Is the city of Ventura going to regulate who and what day consumers can go to see a blockbuster movie for fear of the traffic and impacts on loss of money to other entertainment venues?

You people are absurd.

Nice Ventura,

The problem with passing a city-wide big box ordinance is that if some day a store like IKEA were to come to town -- and that is something we are hoping to get behind the Auto Mall -- that ordinance would prohibit that, too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big Wal-mart fan. In my personal opinion only, I would prefer a more upscale retailer for that site. We already have two Targets within close proximity. I would like to see Ventura get something new rather than more of the same.

But I'd LOVE to see an IKEA come to town. So I personally would not be in favor of a city-wide big box ordinance.

I am sure your question will be dealt with at the upcoming CAPC/Star City Council forum Wednesday night. I encourage you to come and listen.

What about all the poor furniture dealers that would go out of business as a result you liking IKEA?

How dare you like a big box store like IKEA. You need to go to a more expensive, less choice furniture shops in town. We need to talk to government officials to ensure we keep it the way it is.

I'm offended you like IKEA and I'm going to use the government to stop your choice to protect our poor furniture dealers to keep their prices high and their selection scarce.

Hi Marie - I'm not a big walmart fan either. Victoria is so crowded with traffic congestion already and personally I'm more for restrictions along Victoria. I serious doubt ANY retailer is going to want to go into the EXISTING Kmart site without some serious renovations or new construction of a new building which in effect will probably displace the other smaller retailers and small business owners on that site. Consumers like fresh and new - and let's be honest - the existing site is old and very dated and if WalMart does try to come in they will presumably want the entire site (for their parking structure and all).

As for IKEA - I've been hearing rumors floating around for years that IKEA is coming to Ventura and it still hasn't happened. Do we know if they have even demonstrated an interest to the city for that? Would a spot on the existing parcel that Pacific View Mall is at maybe more appropriate? There are several vacant buildings between the mall and the Sears auto service center that have been sitting that way for years (with of course the exception of the seasonal halloween store). Wouldn't that be a more approriate location for maybe another large scale retailer rather than the auto center location (although there are plenty of large warehouse size buildings @ the auto center that could accomodate them maybe under a conditional use permit or something)?

I just don't feel like we need more of the same (I mean really - come 08 we will have 2 Targets in Ventura alone).

Way to go, East German. I like most of what you say, even though your impartiality in judging competition at the Olympic Games is questionable.

I agree with your point on stores having to become more competitive if WalMart comes in on Victoria. A boon to consumers, for sure. Stores like Trader Joe's, Ralph's, & Long's aren't just going to fold up their tents and move out of town, c'mon. I noticed that really happened when the WalMart stores opened in Oxnard and Simi Valley, right? No, I think the opposite actually occurred. Other stores benefited from the additional shoppers that WalMart drew to the area (the spillover effect).

I don't want to see Wal-Mart in Ventura for numerous reasons. Their track record as a corporation is abominable, with regards to employee rights (abuses), manufacturing issues in China, destroying U.S. small retail businesses, and so on. Many Wal-Marts also allow overnight camping in their parking lots. You can find statistics on crime rates related to Wal-Mart parking lots. Is that what we want in Ventura? How much money do people really save at Wal-Mart? At what price are those "savings"? Do we save if we have to pay for increased police patrolling of their parking lot, or for increased arrests, jailing, and the resulting legal/court cases? This is a high-priced area to live. Will Wal-Mart employees make a livable wage? Wal-Mart has a history of anti-union organizing, paying sustainable wages, and of providing affordable health care benefits. Their employees historically have taken advantage of county welfare programs, such as food stamps and health care. This will save the community money? Anyone who investigates Wal-Mart's history will find this information easily. Anyone who wishes to shop at Wal-Mart can get on the 101 Freeway and exit at Rose Ave. in Oxnard. It's not that far from Victoria Ave. in Ventura. Keep Wal-Mart out of Ventura! The tax revenue isn't worth it.

Barbara:

I think it's sad you decided to bash WalMart employees as on "welfare" when majority are not. They've freely accepted employment, wages, and work very hard for their money. While they are out their working/earning a living you're sitting here blogging about how terrible they are and the company they work for.

Shame on you.

Nice Ventura,

If you look up at Rick Cole's post above, it would appear that Wal-mart has come back with a plan that conforms to the existing footprint for that K-mart site. Maybe I am reading his comments wrong, but I don't think so. If that is the case, all this hand-wringing on both sides is moot. Again, the city cannot legally prevent Wal-mart from stepping into that same-size space.

If I am wrong, maybe Rick will come back on here and clarify.

On the IKEA: The Auto Mall site would be a better place. It is my understanding that they will be doing road improvements to that area to better handle a larger retailer. I don't think IKEA has expressed interest in the Pacific View Mall site. I also think they were looking at outdoor adventure store Bass Pro for that area as well.

Sustain -
If you wish to Sustain Ventura, you should take a much more objective look at what happened in Simi Valley. No Trader Joe's, Ralph's and Longs did not "fold up their tents." They don't have to. They are chain stores that rely on overall success of their chain to remain open. Wal-Mart Simi Valley also agreed to a compromise (a word not seen in most Wal-Mart dictionaries) not to have a Superstore, thereby securing the lifeblood of Ralph's and Trader Joe's. Longs/Simi Valley, on the other hand, is a ghost town these days.

The real victims are the small shops owned and often operated by local business people. The Mountaingate Plaza in Simi Valley has been a nightmare of transient business populations. I cannot even count the openings and closings that have taken place there since Wal-Mart came to town. Nor can most people remember the names of most of these shops. Aside from two competing health clubs (chains of course) in the largest commercial spaces - and literally located next door to each other - the huge plaza has been home to a mix of short-lived "discount" merchandise centers; that is when the shops themselves are not vacant. Sales tax income does not rise becuase of Wal-Mart. It's source is simply repositioned.

That is the real story behind Wal-Marts all over America. Small business extracted from a community to serve the greater needs of "saving" at Wal-Mart. Ventura's upscale beach community charm lies in the shops that decorate its walk friendly streets. While some of those streets admittedly need a face lift - they do not need to have their soul and spirit exorcised at the expense of Wal-Mart.

If Oxnard wishes to continue down that road, it is only in keeping with their years of planless planning and over-commercialization piled on top of farms and fast-tracked housing projects.

Sustain Ventura by maintaining its character and spirit. Do not sacrifice Ventura for short-term savings.

Sustain - do not sacrifice - Ventura!

That guy who thinks that Walmart employees are being attacked is avoiding "facts" because they don't fir his agenda.

WalMart's business plan includes helping employees apply for welfare.

http://www.commonplacebook.com/current_events/walmart_vs_targ.shtm

It is obvious that the government is subsidizing Walmart by paying their employees what they cannot or will not.

Maybe their prices wouldn't be cheaper if they didn't help their employees to government money.

It is already hard enough on other stores to compete without Walmart the biggest welfare queen of all.

Shop Target.

Wherever WalMart goes it leaves devistation in it's wake. And the wake it creates is huge. Just go to the counties and communities in our country where they have set up business and look at the businesses and the neighborhoods. They maybe CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP, and they are not committed to the quality of life of their employees or the people who buy their "slave labor products." When they have driven businesses out they raise their prices. you can count on it.

Marie - I quickly read Mr. Cole's comments and it seems that they want to build an entirely new store and not use the existing building. The city cannot legally prevent them from moving into the existing bldg however they can make them more accountable to the community if they allow them tear down and build a "3 story 151,000 Square Foot project, including a 714 space parking structure". Do we really want that much traffic in that area? From what I've been reading it seems (and forgive me if I'm wrong here) that they want any new big box type stores to move out to the auto center. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want for a 3 story walmart in any part of Ventura.

In relation to IKEA - I've never been into or shopped @ an IKEA (although I've driven by very large box type warehouse stores) down south. Interesting that Bass Pro would want to go to Pac View . . . the traffic in that area is horrible and the parking is even worse.

Let's be clear about a Big-Box ordinance... It WOULD NOT limit an IKEA or something similar. It would limit stores "Over 99,000 square feet to restrict no more than 5% of their floor space to groceries". It would also compel a living wage and mandatory percentage of full-time employees.

If Wal-Mar can change their ways, they are welcome. But eliminating living wage, full time jobs and replacing them with a bunch of low paying part-time jobs is not something we should tolerate.

RICK COLE SAID "If Walmart (or any other tenant) wants to replace the existing building, it must respect the clear language in the General Plan regarding the Victoria Corridor which is to discourage single-use big box retail stores because of the traffic patterns they generate."

THAT IS ALL WAL-MART IS!!! Also, the City Council has yet to draft any enabling ordinances to turn the General Plan into LAW. (Which is why the current proposal all but IGNORES the general plan. There is also a difference between discourages and forbids.

These bozoz are selling us oout using semantic word games.

Nice Ventura,

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was mentioning Bass Pro as a possibility for behind the Auto Center as well. If you drive around back there you will see a big, new industrial area suitable to this sort of development.

What I believe Rick meant was that Wal-mart has come back with a scaled-down version of the plan posted here which would fit into the 90,000-sq.-ft. or less mandate of the Victoria Corridor Plan. So they would possibly tear down the building and build one this size, not 151,000 sq. ft. This would mean no supercenter with groceries, I believe.

This is what I am trying to tell you: as long as a store conforms to the new coding for the area, the city cannot discriminate over which retailer it happens to be.

I am not the definitive answer person here, but I do have a good grasp of the situation. I realize the Wal-mart situation, both pro and con, makes many people unhappy. But the city has to uphold the law and its General Plan. People need to understand this.

The city HAS NO LAW TO UPHOLD because they haven't put in any protective ordinances!

The Supreme Court cited in its recent Hanford Decision, the zoning code in Turlock, Calif., which limited big box stores with a grocery component. Wal-Mart sued Turlock, and lost. Turlock passed the ordinance because it said "discount superstores (are) likely to negatively impact the vitality and economic viability of the city's neighborhood commercial centers by drawing sales away from traditional supermarkets located in these centers." In the Turlock case, the court ruled that cities are empowered "to control and organize development within their boundaries as a means of serving the general welfare." Avoiding "urban/suburban decay" is a legitimate public interest.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE CITY NEEDS TO GET OFF OF ITS ASS AND DO SOMETHING!

The coding for the area is being written right now and it will come before council and they will vote on it very soon. They just recently voted to proceed with the process for this. You can bet that any development in the pipeline right now will conform to this code.

We also have other laws in place, as Fulton wrote, "The truth is it’s very difficult to keep any individual company from doing business in our city. Constitutionally, our planning policies cannot distinguish between Wal-Mart and, say, Kmart or Target."

So how can you ask the city to legally keep out a business which is the same size as the existing K-mart?

It is being done all across the country. Fulton is simply WRONG. First of all, when it comes to Wal-Mart, I wouldn't trust them with my car keys. Secondly, there are "intensification of use" codes that could be enacted. Simply put, a business which generates considerably more traffic, can be corralled out of an area.

The problem here is that Mr. Fulton nor the rest of the City Council don't see anything beyond tax dollars... screw the community.

That is not god.

It gets done,

You do realize that there are an equal number of folks out there who are bugged at the city for not making it really easy for Wal-mart to waltz in there, right?

All I have to say is that if people on both extreme ends of this issue are perturbed with the city, then they must be doing something right.

I think it's just another clear example of how the current City Council has screwed this community. They do it every Monday night, don't they? They keep business guessing while they continue to work on their legacies and resumes (Fulton, Morehouse, Cole, et al). What a joke! This Council wouldn't last 5 minutes in any other community, but here, we seem to tolerate their malfeasance and shortsightedness. Someone change the channel, please. We need a shake-up. Can't wait for November 6th!

Ahh, the other extreme heard from....

Oh well, I am glad we have plenty of opinionated, passionate people here. Makes it all very interesting. Another reason I love this town!

I find it interesting that if you oppose Wal-Mart because of the unmitigated traffic they will cause, you are "extreme"

I find it interesting that if you oppose the sweatshop conditions of Wal-Marts factories in China, you are extreme.

I find it interesting, that if you oppose the sub poverty level wages of Wal-Mart, and oppose bringing that into our community, you are extreme.

What I really find interesting, is that any of our City Council would even hesitate to flat out oppose this boondoggle.

We really don't need this crap in our neighborhood. You want to destroy a City Mr. Fulton, go to Oxnard.

Why would you want to destroy Oxnard?

If Wal-mart is willing to comply to traffic, housing, labor, health care, and environmental standards that society and, specifically, the community say are acceptable, what is the problem?

I think the point, here, is that Wal-mart won't do that. They will not comply to paying more for affordable housing and they will not give all of their employees access to health care.

But if they do, what is the justification of keeping them out? I am, of course, a Democrat so anti-Wal-mart because of the way in which they treat their workers, their labor standards, etc, but I also think that we really need to be willing to come to the table if they are as well; however, never waiver on our core values.

So, if Wal-mart then does all those things, are we then okay with Wal-mart coming in, or is it just too icky of a place? It seems like some people don't want "those people" in our town. Because two Targets in town are real eye-catching and attracts a really high-class crowd, as is that huge chunk of a Lowe's...what would be accceptable in place of Wal-mart...another Bed, Bath and Beyond?

Marie -

I totally understand that the city cannot discriminate to who comes into any area as long as the retailer conforms to the existing coding for the specific area. That I do get. I think what the community and the city need to consider is planning for "responsible retailers" who are paying their employees comprable to the living wage standards of our community. They need to provide access to affordable healthcare and housing. They also need to take into consideration the traffic and overall environmental issues and the impact of such on our community.

I guess I'm getting sort of tired of arguing now. As a consumer I would also like a better shopping experience for Ventura than Wal-mart. I also don't think we need another Target at the mall within a mile of the existing one. As a middle-aged lady, I wish there weren't so many stores catering to skinny teenagers at the mall, too. :-)

But that's what the free market is giving us.

Nice Ventura, I think you have it right -- "responsible retailers." Ventura is crammed with irresponsible retailers, but if they all start stepping up to the plate and begin discussing being responsible despite their history, we have to be willing to work with them.

Marie, I feel you because the mall is definitly catering to skinny teenagers; however, that IS bringing in sales tax revenue that Ventura really needs. Do you think that is playing a role in the City Council's lack of back bone as it relates to Wal Mart?

Wow, Heather, you wake up early.

I guess my point -- which was made in a frivolous way -- was that I think at some point we need to respect the free market system.

I would also like to jettison the adult bookstore downtown, but it's following all the city's rules and regulations for that area, so it stays.

Oh well, I'm off to the Hillsides Concert. Jack Johnson's playing. Hope you all can make it, too.

For every one blogger that spews venom at WalMart, I bet they'll be 500- 1,000 shoppers at the WalMart when it opens. In the end that is the real story.

You don't like WalMart, don't shop there. That is the nature of a system where consumers rule the day.

What gives you the right to ruin it for everyone else who will shop there when it opens?

Thanks Heather! I do really appreciate your comments. And I do totally agree with what you have said before about WM. And I do agree that if any retailer wants to come to Ventura that they should be willing to be "responsible" and we as a community should also be willing to sit across the table from them in those discussions. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening with WM. As with most retailers and business in general - it's all about their bottom line even if it is at the expense of the community or their employees or the taxpayer . . .

Marie, I did not know there was an adult bookstore downtown and could have done without...that's gross, but you are right. They have the right to be there.

EGSDD...so true, for every Wal Mart protester, there are quite a few waiting to burst down the doors for the rolled-back prices. I think one of the first attornies to launch a major class action law suit against Wal Mart many years ago was quoted as saying "you know, I can fight Wal Mart to the end, but the reason why I will never win is because I can't get my mom and my grandma to stop shopping there."

We need a city council that will go with responsible retailers, as was said before...do we have that? And if not, how do we get it? It seems almost everyone is mamby-pamby about it, even the challengers, with the exception of Jerry...but is he strong on other issues and how will he bring in sales tax revenue otherwise?

Ventura does not need Wal-Mart. Of course they bully their way into communities by offering lower prices, but that comes at the expense of health benefits and decent working conditions for their employees. We really need to ask ourselves if the predatory practices of Wal-Mart represent the best that we can offer our community?

Heather,

I think some of the other challengers for City Council have advocated a better economic development strategy, like Gibson. I don't think Martin says much about economic development, except trying to bring more tourism to town, but that's not going to help that much. We don't even have the parking downtown to accommodate more tourists. I think Gibson perhaps has a greater understanding & appreciation for the importance of economic vitality to Ventura's future.

I keep seeing "responsible" retailers being floated around.

That's code for local retailers that offer less selection for a higher price.

My favorite are the know-it-alls that seem to know better than the shoppers at WalMart. Demand for a WalMart is here. Deal with it.

Look, you are free to not shop there, but don't go around using your connections in government to ruin it for the rest of us.

Marie, I'm saddened that you are going to Jack Johnson because I think you should support local entertainers. Maybe, I can call my government officials and try to keep Jack Johnson out of town to protect our local entertainers.

Heather, your argument unfortunately misses the point and plays into the spin.

A community DOES have the right to keep Wal-Mart out, based on an "intensification of use". For those "free market" people, if we let the "free market" decide everything prostitution would be legal and there would be a strip club on every corner. (If you don't like it, don't go there)

Our government has a responsibility to look out for our LONG TERM interests. If Wal-Mart is allowed in Ventura, they will just bully in an expansion in a few years. We don't need Wal-Mart and all it brings in Ventura PERIOD!

What would we do without someone bringing up prostitution and strip clubs?

Get a new red herring pal.

Bring me an example of a "stop Wal-mart" mentality that does NOT have the union behind it. Virtually all local stop wal-mart efforts is seeded by C.A.U.S.E. or the SEIU union.

Right now that strip mall is suffering. However, Trader Joe
is going great guns. Obviously, people like cheap prices.

My favorite thing about WalMart right now is they are entering the big screen TV market. This means prices will drop even further and everyone will be able to buy one that wants one.

It used to be only the wealthy elite had projector big screen TV's, but now because of WAlMart and Best Buy these once luxury items are becoming more affordable.

No wonder wealthy know-it all liberals hate WalMart. It makes their once sacred status symbols affordable for everyone who wants one.

Dear "Save Money Live Better": If you aren't a Wal-Mart employee, I would be very surprised. I'm not just "sitting here blogging" (as are you, didn't you notice that?), but I work full-time. And guess who I work for? The Welfare System. So I know a little bit about what I'm talking about. And since you are so up on your Wal-Mart big screen TV information, I'm pretty sure you work for them. Your comments about "wealthy know-it all liberals" and "the wealthy elite" shows what? Envy? Jealousy? Anger at the fact that Wal-Mart doesn't pay you better wages? I hope they are paying you to be their supporter here, but maybe your blinding loyalty has you shilling for them for free.

First of all, for all your grandstanding against unions, they offer PROTECTIONS for everyone. Why do you think we have any minimum wage at all??? Think the Chamber of Commerce lobbied for that?

Why do you think we have 40 hour work weeks? 8 Hour days? Vacation, sick days, health care, dental etc... think corporate America woke up and said "let's give away free stuff!?"

NO! It is because workers organized, formed unions and FORCED change in our work-force. Wal-Mary is a perfect example of the anti-union -- sweatshop conditions in China, $120.00 a month pay and 60 hour weeks -- in the US: They fight any workers right to organize, limit most employees to part-time status, offer crappy health care to their few full-time employees after 1 year -- the list goes on and on.

And by the way, it is UFCW mot SEIU that backs these fights... know why? Because IT IS THEIR JOB!

He doesn't give a crap...screw the working family now he gets his projector TV cheaper.

GOD AM I ashamed to be an American... it's all about the dollar for these people.

Looks like you have all been having lots of fun arguing while I was gone.

In response to East German's post above: Jack Johnson rocked. And he DONATED his time to play for the Hillsides Conservancy here in Ventura. It was a benefit for them.

Most people like bargains. But are all bargains equal? Low wages and few or no benefits contribute to poverty and substandard health not only abroad, but right in our own communities. Does this type of bargain exemplified by Wal-Mart contribute to a healthy community? I question the value of bargains that result from costs kept low on the backs of both the people who manufacture and the people who do the groundwork in selling those products (ie, clerks, salespeople, janitors, stockers, truck drivers, etc.). Wal-Mart is not necessary to a healthy, flourishing community.

I'd rather work at WalMart, than spend my day doling out other people's money to dope dealers, illegals, and felons.

Hell, I'd rather clean Walmart toilets than work in a welfare department.

10 bucks says the snooty "too good to be an American" already has LCD TV with surround sound and picture in picture.

It would be nice to know the positions on Walmart from some of these council candidates. Who knows this info? I know the chamber of commerce people want Walmart.

Has anyone asked all of the council candidates what their positions are yet? Hoping they will give a direct answer and not 'dance' around the issue. It's laughable @ what the chamber people want.

I think Jerry Martin has said he doesn't like Wal-mart. Gibson has said he favors Wal-mart. The chamber candidates Halter and Cunningham are in favor. Not sure about the rest.

To Save Money - Live Better-

The continuation of Wal-Mart practices will only ensure that more people will need the government programs you deride to survive. With your trite marketing tag it is obvious you help make the decisions for Wal-Mart expansion. You'll never struggle like the workers they abuse so why the hell should you care. You've probably never cleaned your own toilet - let alone WalMart's.

Save Money,

I really don't think it matters that much what the candidates "like" WalMart or not. The fact is, there is no legal way they can ban WalMart from coming to Ventura. So, they're just milking all the political rhetoric they can get out of the issue.

Email addresses for the candidates/current city council members and ask them to get answers here (except for Doug Halter because I couldn't find one for him):

cmorehouse@ci.ventura.ca.us, cweir@ci.ventura.ca.us, bfulton@ci.ventura.ca.us, nandrews@ci.ventura.ca.us, bbrennan@ci.ventura.ca.us, jmonahan@ci.ventura.ca.us, council@ci.ventura.ca.us, jerry39@earthlink.net, voterencher2007@yahoo.com, votelou@loucunningham.com, mgibson@co.santa-barbara.ca.us, draw_not2002@yahoo.com

Um, to my knowledge the only council candidate that has taken a strong position "yay" or "nay" to Wal Mart has been Jerry Martin. As I understand, now, Gibson has as well.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the small business owners in the Chamber would WANT a Wal Mart; however, I think they do not want too many limitations placed on their businesses -- there is a difference, but whatever, that is really not the issue.

I'm not entirely sure how intesification of use is related to workers rights and dignity, but okay. Yes, I must be falling prey to the spin that pro-Wal mart people use. I'm so evil...oh wow, maybe I'm even anti-union!!!!

I said I don't like Wal Mart and for legitimate reasons, and that we should elect people into our city government that will take a strong position on ALL of the issues, and stand behind them. Not fall in love with something just because it looks nice or promises to provide ample parking.

The issue of sales tax revenue is a big one because Ventura doesn't have a whole lot of it, though. If we are going to keep out Wal Mart, what will be an acceptable alternative and how will we train the people that would have otherwise worked there for the "higher paying" jobs that will go in? Those are the questions that should be asked of the council candidates.

Continually saying "I really don't think it matters that much what the candidates "like" WalMart or not. The fact is, there is no legal way they can ban WalMart from coming to Ventura" doesn't make it true.

THE FACT IS THERE ARE LEGAL WAYS TO KEEP WAL-MART OUT. The City Council just hasn't shown the courage to do it.

Michael Gibson said this on his blog here:

In response to the question posed to me on my position on Wal-Mart coming to Ventura, yes I believe it does have the potential to draw people from other communities. I don't see a problem with that at all. I think it will enhance Ventura's image as a community on the move with a pro-active economic development program that relies on a regional draw to support its ever-increasing demand for services (police and fire, particularly). Sales tax is allocated to cities based on the point-of-sale, so we will retain all the sales tax generated regardless of where the shoppers come from. The elected officials in this community simply cannot continue to bury their heads in the sand while other surrounding communities welcome business growth and opportunity and we stay stuck in the past with old attitudes and ideas about growth and business expansion.

Regarding your question on whether I think Wal-Mart will diplace other businesses, I sincerely do not believe it will. Wal-Mart caters to a much broader customer base than our existing small business owners in the City, most of which have a niche product or service that they're offering. Wal-Mart will attract shoppers interested in discounted prices for the same types of products that they purchased from similar retailers, such as Target, K-Mart, Costco, Sam's Club, etc. I know we have a Target store in Ventura with possibly another one coming to town, but I think Wal-Mart will only enhance competition from this retailer, resulting in lower prices for the consumer overall. And what's wrong with that, I ask you? It's another example of the free market system doing what it does best - encouraging competition! As living proof of this, I didn't see Target or K-Mart in Oxnard leaving town when the Wal-Mart opened up there. They simply got more competitive.

Lastly, I think Wal-Mart will undoubtedly increase consumer spending for the reasons stated above. This is a good thing for the City, as it will bring in new sales tax revenue to support services that have been lagging behind our needs (additional police officers and firefighters, park maintenance, streets and roads maintenance, etc.).

I want to know what the city council’s position on is for “big box ordinances” and if they plan to include “intensification of use” language in the general plan.

Something is probably going on with them if the ‘interim ordinance’ for the Victoria Corridor was allowed to expire without something else in place.

Guys,

I don't live in Ventura and I believe you folks are perfectly capable of debating the merits of Walmart in Ventura without a lecture from me.

That being said I appreciate the citizen democracy in action on this thread including the city manager clarifying things, resources to contact candidates, and a debate about free market economics VS the needs of a community.

With all the bad news about voter turnout and public apathy it is cool watching this virtual town hall forum with a cluster of people that know what they are taking about.

Thanks and keep it up.

I hear after the election there will be a Ventura themed blog. if you want help with links to your site and technical support let me know.

"More Googling" has got to be kidding! You put a WalMart SUPER CENTER in and Trader Joe's, Ralph's and Long's WILL be affected and will probably close up shop since they are in such close proximity to the proposed site. It's happened in other areas. The plans above are probably for a supercenter because of the size. We've already got 2 Targets why would we want more of the same old thing???

Oh and by the way KMart in Oxnard is leaving (closing for good) very soon AND just for the record - the Oxnard Target store hasn't been remodelled for as long as I can remember because the others generate more revenue so they get to look new and pretty all the time. Oh and as for the Vons near the WalMart in Oxnard - it's relatively safe since it moved from it's Gonzales location because the WM in Oxnard isn't a super center (and let's hope it never becomes one!). The City of Oxnard sold out in my opinion.

The bottom line is that WalMart destroys communities and hurts local and existing businesses and as an employer they are horrible to work for. They've made employees work off the clock, they encourage their employees to apply for welfare benefits and they don't provide adequate healthcare coverage for their employees or their families. How sick and irresponsible is that?

Oh, you're mixed up. I didn't say that. Look at the top line. I pulled all that from Michael Gibson's blog here. I was looking for web sites for the candidates and found it.

at least we know that MIKE GIBSON appears to be in SUPPORT of walmart. Unbelievable.

and JERRY MARTIN appears to OPPOSE walmart. Jerry is the only candidate so far that has my vote!!!!!!!!!!!! >:-)

if anyone knows what the other candidates including the 3 incumbents think-can you let me know???????

Brian,

You are right, this is exciting! Early in the campaigning, I was volunteering for one of the candidates (no time now) and he told me they expect between 23 and 30% voter turn-out in an off-year like this.

THAT IS PATHETIC.

It is too bad that such a negative and contentious issue is causing more activity and community dialouge, but at least people are getting involved.

Question for the googling people -- has Trader Joe's, the local Ralph's or Longs taken a position on the Wal Mart? Are they active in the chamber? I know they are all chain, but have they?

"More Googling" - my apologies - for being "mixed up"

But the way I personally read what you pulled and posted appears to me or rather implies to me that he supports the Walmart...Using the free market system and competition as an excuse.

If you are refering to the "top line" as the 'first sentence' all that implies is increased traffic to all already overburdened street.

But again - "my apologies"

No problem, fellow Googler. I was sort of chuckling about the line where he says Walmart "will enhance Ventura's image as a community on the move."

By first line I meant what I wrote about finding it on his blog.

Chuckle all you want, Luv2Google, the fact is that it's coming and ain't nothing you unionists can do to prevent it.

JUST WATCH US!

I love that = "you unionists". Just remember that union members include your local fire and police departments, city employees and so on. I never said I was a "union member" BUT I am grateful to the unions for things like the 8 hr work day, holidays, workplace safety, and so forth.

I do believe in Ventura that we have a strong community and it will be the community INCLUDING union members, who will decide!

Interesting reading. I think the city council is giving our community the short end of the stick.

Clearing Up - What more can the city council do or can WE DO AS A COMMUNITY to legally keep walmart & all of the baggage that comes with em out of Ventura?

I'm looking forward to WalMart coming to Ventura. Right now, prescription drug costs are outrageous and the government, democrats and republicans are total failures.

WalMart's $4 dollar prescription drug program has already saved Americans 610 million in it's first year and it announced an even larger plan last week.

In California, WalMart has saved 15 million in prescription drug costs directly to consumers and provides the 6.5 million uninsured that the government has totally failed with prescription drug options.

While the WalMart bashers are whining, WalMart is acting and helping consumers afford prescriptions that used to be out of reach.

To help STOP the Wal-Mart, visit www.StopWalmartVentura.com

Looking forward, I recommend the following website: https://www.pparx.org/

Undoubtedly, Wal-Mart does some good things, but as an overall their cost to communities, the workforce, and our nation is one that is simply to high for us to pay.

We should avoid it at all costs. There will always be the impoverished who for one reason or another can not go anywhere else, especially for prescriptions... but that is not the average person.

The average person is simply unaware. Once they become aware, the question becomes are the few bucks "saved" at Wal-Mart worth the slave labor in China, the driving down of wages in the US, no health-care and on and on and on that Wal-Mart brings to a community? The answer any fair-minded person will arrive at is no.

http://walmartwatch.com/ This site has substantiated and verified information about Wal-Mart's policies, practices, lawsuits, and so forth. The largest class action employment discrimination suit in history was brought against Wal-Mart. They have been busted for the conscious practice of using illegal immigrants as night janitors in stores across the U.S., paying below minimum wage. In Mexico, their grocery baggers work for no pay, only tips. If you check out the annual Forbes list of top richest Americans, the Wal-Mart heirs are always in the top 5-10. Why? Because of corporate greed. Of course, this all falls on deaf ears to those who are drinking the pro-Wal-Mart Kool-Aid. Reality is often painful to deal with, folks! Wal-Mart is not a good neighbor.

I used to work in the field during the Mao's great leap forward. My father and I would work our field only to have it taken by the government each harvest and given to government bureaucrats and their cronies.

Now, I moved to the free enterprise zone and I make 120 a month work for a supplier to the US. I have a savings account and am making decent money. I am thankful for US multi-national corporations for freeing me from government serfdom.

Thank you WalMart.

Dear "Save Money Live Better" (at least I use my real name): Since you are so opposed to welfare programs or public assistance, I can assume that you will not accept Social Security checks once you are eligible. Social Security is the biggest welfare program in the U.S. You could always, say, clean toilets or maybe even be a Wal-Mart greeter, handing carts to shoppers. Because you know, the government is so bad and all. LOL

Barbara

I don't accept social security. Does that mean I get all my money back that I earned and the government took away? I thought not.

Marie:

What about local entertainers? They lost out because you decided to go see an outsider. Shouldn't, as many are proposing with WalMart, government limit your choices down to the ones the select council members feel are appropriate?

Fantastic news for consumers this holiday season. WalMart is offering large discounts on toys. This will mean other retailers must respond to match prices making the holidays an opportunity for consumers to save more than ever before.

Fantastic news for consumers. Is reducing prices on toys at significant discounts irresponsible? I think not.

How much does Wal-Mart pay those little kids in China to make those toxic lead-painted cheap toys? Fair wages? "I think not". Child labor is okay? "I think not".
You just don't get it. Wal-Mart loyalty has you brainwashed. I'm bored with you, so prattle on.

Hi East German,

You are persistent, aren't you? But you are kind of funny about it, so I will give you points for that. I'm done arguing here. I've said all I had to say in the earlier posts. My kids tell me I repeat myself too much, anyway.

All I will say in closing is that I hope we can eventually find some peace about this. Open discussion and communication is always a good thing, even if we don't all agree.

The entire WalMart issue is a sad one. And I see that many of you have been busy blogging away.

A substantial amount of Walmart workers currently earn less than the poverty line. That means they will be seeking out social services (i.e. welfare, food stamps, child care subsidies, etc) which means it will cost us taxpayers more for this corporation to employ people. ** Walmart workers don’t earn enough to support their own families. But in 2004 alone, the CEO of Walmart Lee Scott made about $22 MILLION (yes, million) in stock awards, stock options and bonuses on top of his salary. By the way, Mr. Scott earns an estimated $1.2 million dollar annual salary. ** Walmart's healthcare programs for their workers are restrictive. If you’re part time – you are pretty much screwed for at least a year because you aren’t getting any coverage whatsoever. And by the way they only cover about 43% of their workers anyway – THAT IS IF THE WORKER CAN AFFORD THE COVERAGE. About only every 1 in 6 of their 1.3 million employees have coverage. ** In 2005 CEO Lee Scott himself said “in some of our states, the public program might actually be a better value – with relatively high income limits to qualify, and low premiums.” ** Some estimates put out that about $2.5 BILLION (yes – billion) dollars are spent annually providing taxpayer subsidies to the Walmart worker. In that includes free school lunch programs; low income housing assistance; tax credits and deductions; SCHIP healthcare costs; and low income energy assistance programs. ** Walmart officials have publicly said that “it is common” for the company to request subsidies “in about 1/3 of all retail projects”. They really must know how to play the system! ** Walmart generally reduces employees earnings overall by about 5% in every county they operate in. ** Paying less wages means workers will in turn spend less in their communities. ** Walmart will hurt existing business when it comes to town. ** Walmart has already been fined about 5 million dollars in environmental fees because they are destroying the environment. They pollute streams and have contaminated water supplies. ** Walmart does bring blight into communities. They have millions of square feet in buildings they own but have left vacated because they certainly wouldn’t want another tenant to move in or buy the property from them for fear of competition. So the community gets stuck looking @ abandoned buildings that aren’t being taken care of. ** Walmart imports at least 60% of its goods. We all know how toxic the items are from China (anything ranging from toys to pet food). And remember, just because they buy goods from American suppliers doesn’t mean they are manufacturing here. Why would they? They can use CHEAP child labor and abuse workers overseas. ** Walmart doesn’t care for its workers. They discriminate against women, violate child labor laws, violate state regulations for meals and breaks.

The issues are about Walmart and what they WILL DO to our community if they aren’t stopped.

Other than the retail clerks union, who doesn't want a Walmart in their community? Prices are good, services is good, returns are easy. Employees get jobs. It isn't slave labor. It is labor for people who want the job. Shocking concept, but true.

Looking Forward...Walmarts prescription drug program only covers about 300 prescription meds...So please don't make it sound as if they are saving us all money because they aren't.

DumpKnowledge is right.

Looks like we got a bunch of government grinches on this site. Angry that WalMart is offering discounts on toys for the holidays? Say it ain't so.

I didn't see any of you condemning Target for selling dangerous toys. They announce a big recall today and mum is the word. Where is the protest of Target in Ventura? If your going to be outraged, at least try and be consistent.

If you really cared about the employees at WalMart, you get off your duff, head to WalMart, buy the products you need and pay the difference to the associate or the WalMart greeter Barbara is so fond of making fun of.

Instead, you sit on your IMAC sipping Starbucks all day complaining about how evil WalMart and how no one should shop there, hurting the employees even more.

I guess your moral outrage only applies to WalMart instead of that person looking back at you in the mirror each morning.

Speak for yourself Save Money. Our community deserves better than to have another corporation take advantage of not only us but our community as well!

Take Advantage? Yeah, the gigantic line of customers that will be out front on opening day ready to be taken advantage of. Give me a break.

I agree wholeheartedly with "Save Money Live Better", Ventura needs this WalMart. People are famous around this town for griping about the City not doing enough to protect their quality of life - not enough cops, not enough parks, poorly maintained streets & beaches, and the list goes on. Finally, when the opportunity lands on its doorstep to do something to generate ongoing revenue to support city services, the City Council makes it as difficult as possible to bring it in. Well, I think we need to bring in a new City Council - let's start by getting someone like Mike Gibson in there. He's the only one who's not afraid to stand up and be counted on the WalMart issue and many other issues that this namby-pamby Council refuses to address.

Right on Tim:

Please don't forget the often ridiculed WalMart employee. He or she get's to have people like on this blog making fun of their employer and their efforts everyday.